The race role in Heathen religion.

[BerserkrKin]

Hail all and I am glad to say I found this site.
I am new to Odinism but have felt it was what was intended for some time.

First of all I mean to offend no one.

The only thing that "bothers" me is the importance placed on racial background in most Odinist/Heathen lore.
My self not being as well versed in the lore as I am new to the faith and good sources are few.
(mostly secondary sources such as books on Nordic Myths and the obviously cristian tainted Sagas)I would like to know the role that this issue plays on other Heathens, and how it was with our ancestors.
Odinism makes sense to me as the religion of my fathers long past and the creations and exploits of my people.
As far my views I personally do not consider myself a racist,I belive people are not born equal but must prove themselves to be.
I personally wouldn't marry out side of Eropean back ground that is my personal choice.

And I repeat I mean to offed no one.


Hail Odin and the old Gods.
And hail those who search for truth in an age of lies.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

We are not Racist, we are labeled racists by the universalists and fluffy bunny "heathens" who try to diversify our faith for the sake of multi culturalism and being politically correct. With you saying you would not marry outside of european background to that ilk would make you a racist in their eyes, now are you a racist? Well from your post I dont think you are but that would not matter to them (the people who call us folkish odinists racists). Odinism is a folk religion, its the pre christian religion of the Germanic people of europe. The gods of the north are for the folk of the north. Every race of people have their own pre christian ancestrial religion, they should stick to it becasue well.....look at my signature.

I believe all groups of people should embrace their true culture and religion of their ancestors it does not matter if they are black, white, red, yellow or purple. If you are going to pick a folkway, choose the one you have actual ties to, the one you as a person can truely relate to.

Now if having those beliefs makes me a "racist" in some peoples eyes then so be it. I am not Racist, this forum is not Racist but to the universalists, fluffy bunny and wiccatru types it does not matter. Anyone who holds the folkish view to them is a evil nazi.

P.S. You can download e-books here: http://www.nidafjoll.com/library.htm

[Jay]

Folkish Odinism does NOT equal racist.

We seek to persecute nobody, we seek to unify our kin under the Odinic banner...that is all.

[Teufelhunden]

After a post yesterday from the Raven kindered twit, I am starting to "smell a rat". I think those dill holes are starting to poke around here in an effort to push thier mush headed agenda on us...... no offense if you are not one of these, but it seems fishy to get 2 so close together in a day....
Teufelhunden

[Algiz Aegirsson]

I see Odinism as a nationalist religion, but nationalist in a way not comparable to racism.
We are nationalists because we love our folk, a folk long led by our ancesteral faith.
We love our ancestory.

Nazi-pigs combine religion with faith, this is wrong, seeing that our faith never has been racist.

[Cottatt]

To me, any non-european becoming an Heathen/Odinist/Asatruar is one of two things.

He (she) is either an oxymoron, that is, a contradiction in terms, as he is turning his back on his ancestors, in order to pay homage to them; Or he is a man that is already at ease with his ancestors, who support his choosen path.

I have been approached by a number of non-europeans about this, and have pointed them in the direction I think their ancestors would approve of.

[Der Einzelgänger]

After a post yesterday from the Raven kindered twit, I am starting to "smell a rat". I think those dill holes are starting to poke around here in an effort to push thier mush headed agenda on us...... no offense if you are not one of these, but it seems fishy to get 2 so close together in a day....
Teufelhunden

That's the first thing I thought of when I read his post...
And he seems quite worried about offending people, which is what the fluffy bunnies worry about...

Odinism is about the Germanic culture, and is for those people who were born with ties to the Germanic peoples who practiced Odinism. This way of life evolved naturally and it is natural for Germanic decendents. People who have no ties to any part of the Germanic people should stay away from Odinism, find your own heritage, we all have one.

[Scramaseax]

I think there should be a seperate subforum for people who feel like arguing folkish vs universalist, it comes up enough and that way people who aren't interested don't need to hear about it and people who feel like biting can. Otherwise it's just going to keep showing up everywhere like on the old board.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

I think there should be a seperate subforum for people who feel like arguing folkish vs universalist, it comes up enough and that way people who aren't interested don't need to hear about it and people who feel like biting can. Otherwise it's just going to keep showing up everywhere like on the old board.
No it wont, if people read the rules they will know this is a folkish forum. If they cannot accept that we will simply just delete their post, ban their account and that will be that. We're not going to create a forum to cater to these people.

[Draconian Umpire]

I think there should be a seperate subforum for people who feel like arguing folkish vs universalist, it comes up enough and that way people who aren't interested don't need to hear about it and people who feel like biting can. Otherwise it's just going to keep showing up everywhere like on the old board.

If people want to be non-folkish and Odinist, they can join the Troth or whatever. This forum is strictly for folkish types.

[Norsk Blod]

I think Hved's first posts just about sums everything up very nicely

[Teufelhunden]

I totally agree Hved, there is far too much ****ing catering in this world in order to please the weak minded idiots so no ones feelings are hurt..
Personally I think it a mental dissorder all this Pc nonsense...
Teufelhunden

[BerserkrKin]

Okay....I try to be polite in asking and I get called a fluffy.Forgive me if Id rather have an intelligent discussion than it boil down to arguments that serve no purpose(die fluffy scum!!/Lets iggy this Nazi).
I am not a member of the Raven kindred or can honestly say I remember hearing of them.
I never said Odinism was a racist belife.With people who subvert faith for political agendas(neo NAZIs come to mind)I dont think my question unfounded.
Der Einzelgänger I came hear to learn from others about Odinism,if you think me weak for trying to be polite then you can go wrestle with a burning log.
I thank those that tried to answer my question.

[Norsk Blod]

I dont think that fluffy bunny comment was directed exactly at you

[hemrud]

Quite frankly I've never seen a black muslim message board where there appeared posts worried about racism. Racist itself is a meaningless word invented to degrade europeans as it is rarely if ever put to non europeans, it originated early 1900s from the Frankfurt School of thought, I believe. Point being, as has been said before many times here, each ethnic group has its own organic religion and those outside that ethnic group can never truely "get it". This was actually put to me from a Shinto follower concerning his religion. The same goes for any organic religion. each ethnic group has its own values, customs, ancestoral heritage and beliefs (and no all ethnic groups do not share the same values), hence one couldnt truely become what one isnt allready! My advice is to not worry about temporary political jargon and delve into what your ancestoral religion represents and is to its folk. You'll find the folk here are very helpful and there is a good amount of info available, just forget about universalist concepts because no organic religion is that.

[BerserkrKin]

Thank you Hermud,helpfull.

[hemrud]

You're welcome, you just have to realise the admin have to wade through alot of BS posts that are solely intended to be devisive or insulting.
One other analogy I meant to use was that in the Sioux religion series by Fools Crow he states that although he had come to believe the christian god and his natve god were the same, he has also come to realise that for the health of his people as a whole both culturally and physically they should worship in their own native religous customs. Their religion was theirs and theirs alone, although he did share their customs which he believed was a necessary thing, but he states that others didnt agree with sharing their religious ceremonies with others.
So you see other organic religions serve to benefit their ethnic group while also stressing that "outsiders" have their own ancestoral religion or path, but its just not theirs. (Of course with this comparison I dont mean to allude that our gods are the same as the Christian god, as Fools Crow said of his.)

[Scramaseax]

I know it's a folkish forum but sooner or later the same old threads start to appear, so I thought if they're not going to be deleted then they can be in a certain place out of the way. But I see the rules on the new board have been revised:


Due to past trolling we will also not accept “racial profiling” questions, i.e. “I have blonde hair but my grandmother was from Nigeria, can I be an Odinist” or “My great, great grandfather was Turkish but he worked in England, am I folk?”

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

Okay....I try to be polite in asking and I get called a fluffy.Forgive me if Id rather have an intelligent discussion than it boil down to arguments that serve no purpose(die fluffy scum!!/Lets iggy this Nazi).
I am not a member of the Raven kindred or can honestly say I remember hearing of them.
I never said Odinism was a racist belife.With people who subvert faith for political agendas(neo NAZIs come to mind)I dont think my question unfounded.
Der Einzelgänger I came hear to learn from others about Odinism,if you think me weak for trying to be polite then you can go wrestle with a burning log.
I thank those that tried to answer my question.
Ummmm.... Intelligent discussion? Well it would help you to re read all of the posts that were made in this thread before you assumed people were attacking you. No one not once said anything to you.

[Hengest]

I am not a member of the Raven kindred or can honestly say I remember hearing of them.
I never said Odinism was a racist belife.


Well perhaps that would be a big clue to suggest that nobody was talking about you.

Before you take offence check exactly what is being said.

[Der Einzelgänger]

BeserkrKin I was just speculating. In your first post you said you didn't want to offend anyone and then you start talking about how the racial importance of Odinism bothers you. Just sounded like diluted universalism to me.

Well now, instead of all this BS why don't we get back OT, although I think most everything has been said..

[BerserkrKin]

ARG can I just slap a BIG NEVERMIND on this thread?
Sorry for the out burst I felt attacked and missunderstood the situation.
I noticed the fact of people being proud of their racial back ground where as on most sites its completely avoided.
It struck me as odd and as it looks asked the wrong question at an inopportune time.

[The Mersey's Watcher]

Race is very important in Odinism. Odinism is an organic relgion and it comes from the mind and soul of the western man. It's our genetic inheritance which makes us apart of that unique mind and soul.

All other races will have their own religions unique to them.

[heilwotan]

No it wont, if people read the rules they will know this is a folkish forum. If they cannot accept that we will simply just delete their post, ban their account and that will be that. We're not going to create a forum to cater to these people.

Agreed. There should be no leeway for them, If you went to their forums and started to talk about Folkishness they will delete you in a heart beat!

[Lonnie]

After a post yesterday from the Raven kindered twit, Teufelhunden


Don't confuse Raven Kindred South with those of Raven Kindred North...
The person you refer to used a piece from Lou Stead of RK South, Lou has long left Heathenry for Buddhism. So take it for what it is worth...

[Ausswolf]

I totally agree Hved, there is far too much ****ing catering in this world in order to please the weak minded idiots so no ones feelings are hurt..
Personally I think it a mental dissorder all this Pc nonsense...
Teufelhunden


Race is very important in Odinism. Odinism is an organic relgion and it comes from the mind and soul of the western man. It's our genetic inheritance which makes us apart of that unique mind and soul.

All other races will have their own religions unique to them.


Yes! What they said.... :cool:

[gwynyvyr]

Have been reading this thread and got to thinking ....
(aw hel, thats a BAD thing :D )
Anyway...
Terminology...
Is there a difference between *Folkish* and *Tribal* inasfar as Odinism, Heathenism go?
I tend to view *Folkish* as staying with people of the same ancestral background, while *Tribal* is not necessarily relating to the same ancestry, but the same..mindset and goals perhaps?

For example, if I had a house to rent, I would definitely discriminate as far as my choices for renters would go (I am soooo NOT PC! :rolleyes: ).
If my choices were, say:
A Christian couple that were both pure Germanic or Nordic
An Odinic couple, with the husband of mixed nordic/asian ancestry and the wife of mixed ancestry as well.
An agnostic husband with a Wiccan wife, both of northern European ancestry.

I would pick the Odinic couple hands down. I am hard-core anti-JCI. I don't apologize for it...I think it is a good thing. And wiccans make me *twitch*.I think I am allergic to all that *fluff*.....

I get in debates about this with other Heathens all the time, but folks, I haven't met a person of any of the JCI religions I could trust, with the probable exception of my mother and father, and my mom still believes in fairies and house spirits courtesy of HER mom (from Donegal, heh).My dad was raised a southern Baptist :eek: , but until the day he died, the man had some beliefs handed down from his grandmother(Welsh/Scottish) that didn't quite *jibe* with the baptist out look.

Anyway...do you *draw a line* somewhere based on personal experience or faith beliefs on this? Is ancestry or faith/outlook more important to you?

[Der Einzelgänger]

I would draw the line at ancestry. You can change your religion, but not your ancestry.

A pure Xian german or Odinist w/ mixed asian background? Xian, Because I would be able to tell them my ways, and maybe change their mind and then they could become folk, while the 'odinist' in this case could not be folk. And wiccans?? Screw that, they'll get a nice nordic boot in the ass out the door.

[Sigurd]

I believe that is only reserved to people from Europe, especially northern parts, plus Vinland. That's it. No Hindu or Arab children need to follow our religion!

I mostly think that it is an important factor, I won't become Muslim, I am not an Arab. I also think that Germanic people should follow the heathen religion, and not be christian nor hindu, and whatever.

Then, I differentiate between "positve" and "hating" racism. Positive Racism is when you simply put your own people above other races, and your people's heritage, aka National Patriotism. Hating Racism is when you think you are normal and the rest are dirty f**ks.
I simply put my people above everybody else's, and I don't see what is wrong with it. It is naturally for parents to put their children first, so it is naturally to put your own people first. You don't have to hate other peoples, but you should love your own. Of course that is usually classified as unnatural and undesirable, and one can get into prison for simply believing their people to be something special. At least in Germany or Austria (usually up to 7 years, depending on the circumstance, for "Incineration of the People".) Same applies to the swastika, although it is an old folkish sign, and more than anything rather represents tradition, not hate.

Generally you can also interpret, for example the Fifth Charge (if I got this right, I am not good with sequencing stuff) to be of Nationalistic and right-wing extreme nature, and you can also not interpret it so. There is a vast difference.

[Der Einzelgänger]

Prejudice - Acknowledging that there are differences between the various races and cultures, and preferring to be among people of like interest and culture.

I saw this definition on a site about the book 1984. I must say that I prefer it over the dictionary's definition.

[Sigurd]

Prejudice - Acknowledging that there are differences between the various races and cultures, and preferring to be among people of like interest and culture.

I saw this definition on a site about the book 1984. I must say that I prefer it over the dictionary's definition.

What is the dictionary's defintion then?

[Der Einzelgänger]

1.A. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

B. A preconceived preference or idea.


2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions.

3. Irrational su****ion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.

4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

These are all about ignorance and hatred. If I'm prejudiced towards something that doesn't necessarily mean I know nothing of it or hate it, I just prefer something else as opposed to my prejudice.
Like you said there are positive prejudices and hateful ones.

[Sigurd]

yes that pretty much sucks. especially seeing that you get positive prejudice towards something and negative one...

Yea... I think I also prefer the named description over the dictionarys one.

BTW... lol it ruled out in su****ious because it contained the letter combination "s-p-i-c" :D

[gwynyvyr]

I would draw the line at ancestry. You can change your religion, but not your ancestry.

A pure Xian german or Odinist w/ mixed asian background? Xian, Because I would be able to tell them my ways, and maybe change their mind and then they could become folk, while the 'odinist' in this case could not be folk. And wiccans?? Screw that, they'll get a nice nordic boot in the ass out the door.

Dude, you ever ran into a hard core christian German? Especially a fundamentalist type? You aren't gonna change one of their minds...

As for a mixed race Heathen couple...well, I went to school on military bases all over the world...one of my best friends was a girl named Gretchen Tamahachi (last name approximation...no way I could spell it). Mom was german, dad was american born japanese.
Dad bowed out of the way as far as religion training for the kids ..they were raised in a Heathen tradition, which was extremely unusual in that day.(1960s) They were the first Heathens I ever encountered. Gretchens mom was adament about her distaste and distrust for christianity and, against the normal culture of the day, did not allow her kids to go to Sunday School or Vac Bible school with friends.(My mom made me go...just so I'd be outta her hair...and I liked the arts and crafts and cookies & juice anyway ;) , obviously, the lessons didn't stick) The kids were taught to be proud of their germanic heritage and the japanese heritage as well. But, their mom did emphasize the germanic, heh.
I still would let the heathen couple rent before the christian couple.

I am mixed, myself. Though mostly of irish/welsh/scottish ancestry, my moms grandfather was 1/2 Iroquoi. I, personally, don't feel a *call* to my native american ancestry. But I know people that have less na blood than I do that *claim* their native ancestry and follow a NA spiritual path. Which, if I were pure Native, would probably bother me.

[Sigurd]

I agree. And X-ians are something of ignorant. Come on, I was in school going to tell an 8 year old girl that I was "Odin's Warrior" and that earned me a fierce look from her 17yr old sister who told me "not to spoil this poor christian child". Stupid Xians! :mad:

[Algiz Aegirsson]

and that earned me a fierce look from her 17yr old sister

Was she good looking :p
If so, send her to The Netherlands, I'll convert her :D

[Sigurd]

hmmm, not so very. Ok, she is blonde, with blue eyes, about 170 cms high, slim, from France, is pretty spotty in her face, and something seems not so beautiful in the face of proportions. I'd say about average looks.

So, if you're interested PM me and we'll see. :D

[Der Einzelgänger]

Well considering the fact that I would not consider the asian to be folk, and therefore unfit to practice odinism, I don't think I would bring religion into house rentals. So long as they pay the rent and don't trash the place I'm cool with it.

Most of my family is xian. And my Grandmother is hardcore xian. I know I could never change her mind, but I intend one day to atleast tell her about Odinism and what it represents. That's all that I can do, the rest is up to the person you're talking to.

Either way, I support the folk idea, and would not support a non-germanic/anglo-saxon being a Odinist.

[Der Einzelgänger]

I agree. And X-ians are something of ignorant. Come on, I was in school going to tell an 8 year old girl that I was "Odin's Warrior" and that earned me a fierce look from her 17yr old sister who told me "not to spoil this poor christian child". Stupid Xians! :mad:

That's usually the fundies... I have one xian friend who is hardcore and knows a whole crap load about the bible, but I never knew he was even religious until I was talking about christianty and he ended up correcting me on a few things. He was really nice about it, and he understood where I was coming from. Probably the nicest xian I've ever met. But I would say the majority of them are pretty ignorant about any way except theirs. I just ignore them now, no sense in fighting with them, in the end they'll think they've won no matter how the debate turns out, because their god is perfect and allmighty in everyway. :rolleyes:

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

"Odinism is a folk religion".......Good gods I dont know how many times ive said those 5 words alone in my life already.

If someone does not have the ties to our gods they have no right to practice. Some people might say I am arrogant for saying this but I dont care, the Aesir and Vanir are MY gods, the gods of MY ancestors and of MY folk not the gods of Shizuko from Japan or anyone else. Japanese people are not folk and personally I would not accept as mixed japanese/germanic "heathen" couple as my folk, I would not blot with them or share food and drink. Asatru/Odinism is about culture, it is about blood and ancestry. The Aesir and Vanir would not call to non folk because the gods are archetype's for who we are as germanic, anglo saxon or northern european people, we learn from them and the lore and work to be better people. We grow from the lessons we learn from them so to say someone of non germanic stock could be called by the gods is a total joke. They have their own ancestrial gods, let them keep their's and leave our alone.

Once again I refer to my signature for the final comment I make.

[Der Einzelgänger]

Yeah, about a year ago I was just getting into Odinism, and I had no idea about the folk, and most of the sites I was reading were saying that anyone could practice Odinism. When I first read this it just felt wrong. The whole reason I was drawn to Odinism was because it was the way of MY ancestors. And this just felt wrong. And then I came to this site, and mostly heard of the folk through Hved and the Odinic Rite. And I must say, they are 100% right.

I don't see how an asian, arab, african, etc could be drawn to our gods. Why don't they follow their own gods? Our gods and our myths mix best with the germanic peoples and their way of life. It's where we come from, it is our way of life.

[whitebread64]

adding the suffix "ism" or "ist" should not demonize a word. My own definition of a 'racist' would be someone who fosters, promotes and sponsors their own race. In this f***ed up pc world we live in, that's perfectly acceptable for every race except ours. People don't get lambasted for claiming to be a nationalist, or for practicing patriotism...in my opinion that word, "racist", is used today completely out of context. I fail to see how somene not of germanic ancestry could possibly be an Odinist...they lack the ancestral memories, the genetic link with Odinism, no matter how much they want it to be otherwise. Stating this does not make me anything but protective of the spiritual belief system that is mine by birthright, heritage and blood, and if this is considered racist, well then I guess that's what I am. I will not apologize for it, nor should I ever have to.


ODIN BLESS !!!

[thorson]

I would have to say that I agree with whitebread 110%.

[Der Einzelgänger]

I'll second that.

[Katia]

All PC crap has accomplished is make society angrier as a whole and weakened quality of life for all.. ironic for them, isn't it?

[Mike_76]

.....I fail to see how somene not of germanic ancestry could possibly be an Odinist...they lack the ancestral memories, the genetic link with Odinism, no matter how much they want it to be otherwise. Stating this does not make me anything but protective of the spiritual belief system that is mine by birthright, heritage and blood, and if this is considered racist, well then I guess that's what I am. I will not apologize for it, nor should I ever have to.


ODIN BLESS !!!

I couldn't agree more. Is what is going on in California, the USA, a good topic for this forum? I Know it's not a political forum but it sure it on my mind quite a bit right now.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

Lets just keep politics out of this thread if we can. Talking politics is like opening a can of worms, many people have different political ideologys and we should leave it at that. Too many threads get derailed when talking about things like politics which can heat up fast. There are many other forums online to talk politics so lets leave that talk for those forums :)

[Sigurd]

Hmmm... "racism" is a broad word anyway. As I think I emphasized before there is the negative one - hating everybody else, and the positive one - putting your folk and its heritage above the one of others.

Now in today's society, it is easy to let discussion about these slide into political discussion as the "nationalist" and "racist" terms are nowadays generally associated with it, and usually seen as something negative whereever they are used.

So we can always try to keep this out of our discussions, but it is not easy, due to the general people's interpretation, and there may be occurences that people could it into these corners.

Anyway, I'll just give arguments about it as I agree, that in general the discussion should not follow a political line unless absolutely necessary.

-Sigurd

[Der Einzelgänger]

The only thing I've seen Odinism involved in politically is the prisoner outreach.

[Mike_76]

OK. There are 4 million political forums anyway if I want to talk about it, so I will respect your decision.

I see you edited my post for language, sorry about that. I get a little emotional on certain subjects, but I will watch myself.

[Sigurd]

4 million?! That sounds like an aweful large number.... :p

(ok probably I did not spot the hyperbole again)

[whitebread64]

As far as I'm concerned, I'm pretty much booked up with worrying about what's going on in my head and in my heart to worry too much about what others are doing....if I don't like where they are spiritually or don't agree with them, well I just stay away from them....my time is too valuable to squander on idiots, nithlings or culturally confused retards...Ragnarok is coming and I need to get ready !!!


ODIN BLESS !!!

[BerserkrKin]

As awkward as my introducing this question I have found this discussion actually helpful.
Being raised in a very universalist America I never realy considered that positive racism(not realy accurate term) is err...good/possible.
O on the "profiling" on race and religion is illegal in America.(not that its easy to find out)
I would agree with Der Einzelgänger as long as they pay rent and don't do weird things to the apartment who realy cares?
Hmm...Id rather have Heathen or "neo-pagan" neighbors than xian ones regardless of back ground.
Usually less concerned about who I am what I am doing ect ect...Christians are kinda nosy.

Feburary is black history month in America..why only blacks? or do other races have months dedicated to them too?

[æinvargR]

Feburary is black history month in America..
Every year?

[Der Einzelgänger]

They can have the shortest month of the year, I have the other eleven months. Plus, I don't need a month to demonstrate my pride. I do it everyday through honoring the gods and preserving my heritage.

[BerserkrKin]

I pretty sure its every year.
I never cared much but the cool part was they had little history facts on the kiddy cartoon channel.
Interesting but irrelevant. :D

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

I think this thread has run its course, id lock it but I dont think I should even have to do that, most of us have already had our say in it so we should just leave it be. I find most of us if not all of us agree that our folkway isnt one of hate and racial superiority but one of culture and heritige. We are not racists, we are following our culture, the culture of our ancestors and folk. If someone who is black, brown red or yellow does not like the fact we would not accept them into our groups, orgs, kindreds, houses and on this forum because they want to celebrate gods that they have no ties to then that's fine with me. They do not have to like it but to call us Racists or Hatefull make them nothing but ignorant morons who have no concept of culture, roots or heritige.

[phinn]

Greetings Folk it is good to find this site


EDIT: And it is good to have you here but please read the rules and post in the right place! This thread is not really the place to introduce yourself or your group. :)