Valhalla and Dying in battle, Does Evolution count here aswell?

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

I think that we all know the stories of our gods are not meant to be taken in the literal sense, Thor is not a giant strongman in the sky riding a chariot driven by two goats and holding a big hammer, nor is Odin an old man sitting on a throne right now with two ravens comming to him to whisper into his eat and tell him what we are doing here on Midgarð and becasue of this I wanted to ask the question. We all know that the Halls of Valhalla are for those warriors who died in battle fighting for their folk and familys. Well what does dying in battle mean in our modern world? Obviously with the times it isnt possible for every Odinist to die in a war or battle unless you are a soldier or a person who likes to pick a lot of fights. Maybe I am stating the obvious here but I believe that the "battles" mentioned are not meant to be taken as physical battles but battles with ones self and the world. The ever going struggle that is life and fighting for our folk in more ways than with mere swords and shield or guns and tanks.

For one example of fighting non physical but giant battles lets take Odinic Rite members Laurel Owen and our own Kathy Metzger (aud_friggsdottir) who spend hours of their time working with and for Odinist prisioners helping them with their legally given rights to religion within the American govt. Even being female I believe these two fine women will reach the halls of Valhalla without dying a physically violent death.

In my opinion dying in battle isnt as much important as dying during or for a battle. Each of us have our own personal battles in life, they can be personal, work related, working with and helping folk or promoting our Odinic beliefs to fellow Germanic men and women and having people try to stop us. In Heimgest DCG-OR's case he was banned from visiting a prision in Texas. Many of us meet "road blocks" in life, Lokian energys that try to stop us or slow us down. I know that personally over the last few moths ive had my fair share of this negative energy in my life but with inner strength and good supportive friends I am getting through them and becoming a better person. I am starting to feel like my old self, and even better beyond that.

I do not believe in order to earn my seat within Allfathers great hall I have to die fighting in some war or in a physically violent way. Our religion is constantly evolving. As it is said "Odinism is a living religion, a combination of cultural, material, ethical and spiritual realities as they relate to our folk family and our place in creation. It evolves, as we evolve, we evolve, as it evolves." and I believe this to be true so why wouldnt the definition of "Dying in battle" not evolve aswell?

Maybe im stating something that has been said a million times before (Feel free to post a "Captain Obvious" picture :p ), maybe I am making no sense what so ever to most of you at all but it makes sense to me and that is what matters. It's something I have thought about for a long time and I dont ever remember anything about it being posted on the old board so I thought, why not? :D

[The Mersey's Watcher]

I know what you mean. When we overcome the great difficulties in life (and each man will have his own) we win a battle. I believe that the idea of dying in battle for entry to Valhalla isn't about physicly dying. I believe it's a story about self sacrafice for your kin. These people you mentioned Laurel Owen and Kathy Metzger have sacraficed their time in order to help our kin and so I believe Valhalla will be open to them.

[Tyr's Hand]

I agree. anyone who "fights" for our cause will be of benefit to us when Ragnarok comes. but i'm still not convinced they will all go to Valhalla. Is there anywhere in the myths that sugguests that those who aren't warriors will get in? there is no shame in going to Hel or the other places.

[Sigurd]

I think that as long as you never give up what you fight for until you die, you have a right to believe, that you shall go to Valhalla. (which is one good reason for, if you have a "donor" card not to donate your liver, for how then can you drink Mead in Valhalla?! ;) )

One really, nowadays can not take everything literal. One has to be able to adapt the belief so that we can use to our advantage what exists today.

One of the main fight IMO is that you would die for the sake of your family, your friends, and everything else you hold dear, to aid the cause and to know that it is honorable to do so. Should my cause be my fatherland then I would die trying to defend it, easily. Should it be the honour of a friend at stake, I would not hesitate to sacrifice for his benefit.

[Lonnie]

To be honest... We don't really know whats going to happen once we cross over. Depending on the region, time, and tribe one looks to, the thoughts are quite varied on the afterlife... All one can truely do is to live the best life one can... Let the afterlife take care of itself once you get there...

[aud_friggsdottir]

To be honest... We don't really know whats going to happen once we cross over. Depending on the region, time, and tribe one looks to, the thoughts are quite varied on the afterlife... All one can truely do is to live the best life one can... Let the afterlife take care of itself once you get there...

I agree. I don't wring my hands over where I am going to go after I die (our Ways are not that of the death cult of the middle east). I do wring my hands over what kind of world my children and their children will inherit. So I work for their betterment. If that means, I get a special place, great. If it means I get to be reborn, great. If it means, I just rest with no place to go...ahhh that sounds good right now..lol. Finally, if it means I get to haunt my family...lol...well that is a given!

At anyrate, I agree with Lonnie. It varies among tribes and really perception. Either way, we need to ensure a legacy for our children to inherit. They will judge our life's work by theirs.

[Norsk Blod]

I agree with everyone here, Hved has some damn good points. I have thought about this before. but like aud, said I nor anyone should really worry about where their going to go (or else were just like christians worring day after day if we get into heaven) live your lif the best you can fight for your folk and family weather that means physically or mentally fighting and teach others about Odinism, if that means you get into Valhalla then alright, if you go to Hel thats not bad either chat it up with Baldr. if were re-born cool, if we do get to haunt our familys then have a good time! drink all their mead and play some pranks ;)

[Sigurd]

hmmm...well...yeah...i..know

the christians are afraid of hell and want to get into heaven. but then again hell is the best place for sex, ***** and rock'n'roll, so that might appeal to some of the "ohsochristian" rock bands out there....anyway...talking bulls**t again.

But I do believe that the Christian fear of not getting into heaven is a bit exaggerating the whole thing and primitive. Of course, (almost) every heathen would like to go to Valhalla, but if it does not work out, tough luck. And, you actually have to do something to go to Valhalla. To get into heaven you just have to sit back, relax and pray all bl**dy day long!

[jcsturk]

This is a thought provoking topic. Please excuse me if I go off on a slight tangent.

Before we ponder the prerequisites for entering Valhalla, we should discuss the nature of Valhalla and its significance as an allegory. Our myths tell us that this world is one in which warriors spend their days locked in combat, preparing for Ragnarok, and their nights feasting. Valhalla, like all of the nine worlds, may very well be a real place, but I interpret it as a state of being attainable in life--yet more-than-life. Thus, my understanding of Valhalla is that it is a state of being in which the individual is in a nearly constant struggle--meaninful struggle (as the warriors in Valhalla fight to hone their abilities so that they may meet a grand end come Ragnarok) and, due to their exhileration, finds themself celebrating every facet of existence.
This is not simply overcoming challenges and living a happy, meaningful life, but something infinitely beyond such ordinary experiences.

With Valhalla understood in this context, we must consider the meaning of sacrifice (death) in battle. Evola asserts in a chapter of Revolt Against the Modern World that Traditional Indo-European cultures held that there were two forms of "holy war": the lesser conflict, the battle with external forces; and the greater conflict, internal strife. Valhalla can be viewed as the reward for those who thrive off of this internal strife and self-sacrifice for a greater cause.

In my attempt at an esoteric interpretation, I do not think that literal death in combat is necessary to reach Valhalla, but I also do not believe that working to further our faith--as vital as that work is--alone will bring one to this realm. Valhalla is fundamentally a spiritual state, and must be reached through efforts of the spirit. The lesser external actions of the individual are of significance as relates to Valhalla only in their ability to bring about internal development.


Let the afterlife take care of itself once you get there...
Well said. Because of the uncertainty of the afterlife, I generally do not concern myself with speculation about such things, which is perhaps why I always look for some sort of spiritual interpretation.

[Sigurd]

This is a thought provoking topic. Please excuse me if I go off on a slight tangent.

Before we ponder the prerequisites for entering Valhalla, we should discuss the nature of Valhalla and its significance as an allegory. Our myths tell us that this world is one in which warriors spend their days locked in combat, preparing for Ragnarok, and their nights feasting. Valhalla, like all of the nine worlds, may very well be a real place, but I interpret it as a state of being attainable in life--yet more-than-life. Thus, my understanding of Valhalla is that it is a state of being in which the individual is in a nearly constant struggle--meaninful struggle (as the warriors in Valhalla fight to hone their abilities so that they may meet a grand end come Ragnarok) and, due to their exhileration, finds themself celebrating every facet of existence.
This is not simply overcoming challenges and living a happy, meaningful life, but something infinitely beyond such ordinary experiences.

With Valhalla understood in this context, we must consider the meaning of sacrifice (death) in battle. Evola asserts in a chapter of Revolt Against the Modern World that Traditional Indo-European cultures held that there were two forms of "holy war": the lesser conflict, the battle with external forces; and the greater conflict, internal strife. Valhalla can be viewed as the reward for those who thrive off of this internal strife and self-sacrifice for a greater cause.

In my attempt at an esoteric interpretation, I do not think that literal death in combat is necessary to reach Valhalla, but I also do not believe that working to further our faith--as vital as that work is--alone will bring one to this realm. Valhalla is fundamentally a spiritual state, and must be reached through efforts of the spirit. The lesser external actions of the individual are of significance as relates to Valhalla only in their ability to bring about internal development.


Well said. Because of the uncertainty of the afterlife, I generally do not concern myself with speculation about such things, which is perhaps why I always look for some sort of spiritual interpretation.

Good post and good ideas. I also agree that a literal death in combat should not be necessary. "Battle"/"Combat"/"War" can be seen metaphorically.

[The Mersey's Watcher]

I agree with most that has been said here but after reading it all something is dwelling on my mind. Valhalla is a hall of mighty warriors. The point of this hall is that the Gods will have an army of great and powerful men come Ragnarok. So it stands to reason that only the strongest and smartest people will reach Valhalla.

And it should be said that it’s not the duty of Odinists to reach Valhalla. The Gods will decide the fate of our souls after death. I think the best thing Odinists can do is try and be the best they can be, and if that is not good enough for Valhalla, no big deal.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

To be honest... We don't really know whats going to happen once we cross over. Depending on the region, time, and tribe one looks to, the thoughts are quite varied on the afterlife... All one can truely do is to live the best life one can... Let the afterlife take care of itself once you get there...

That was a point I was trying to make. I should have made myself a little more clear on it but I was kinda tired with I posted this and left out a few points. In life your "battle" is living your life the best way you can because sometimes there are things that get in your way and you have to handle them or work with them, it isnt as easy as people think.

[Sigurd]

I agree with most that has been said here but after reading it all something is dwelling on my mind. Valhalla is a hall of mighty warriors. The point of this hall is that the Gods will have an army of great and powerful men come Ragnarok. So it stands to reason that only the strongest and smartest people will reach Valhalla.

And it should be said that it’s not the duty of Odinists to reach Valhalla. The Gods will decide the fate of our souls after death. I think the best thing Odinists can do is try and be the best they can be, and if that is not good enough for Valhalla, no big deal.

You have a point there, mersey; but in a time when mankind's belief in the gods has faded so far, it is our duty to try to be "good enough" for Valhalla, to be strong, to be smart, to be witty, to be one who can, together with others of the same "power" be worthy of this army
I concur with the view that the strong and intelligent should go to Valhalla. But anyway, in some way I believe it is our duty to stride for the best, and ensure that your mental and physical abilities are both always strong - and that way you might be qualify yourself for Valhalla. Who knows? We will never know until we are dead whether we were good enough.

Anyway, my opinion and others may have diverse others: It can all be explained with the principle of perception. For example: Some people class Metal music as "too heavy, too hard, to evil". Others class everything except it as too soft.

[HandofTyr]

Good post and good ideas. I also agree that a literal death in combat should not be necessary. "Battle"/"Combat"/"War" can be seen metaphorically.

It "can" be seen metaphorically in modern times because the people's resolve has weakened. Few undertake combat training. Few temper themselves in rigorous physical/ psychological training. I say literal death in combat IS necessary. Even in the old days there were those who opposed war and combat. Even among our own people. They didn't reach Valhalla.

Personal struggles are a fact of life. To say you've overcome them isn't saying much. Unless you are a soldier (and not necessarily in the Military...) then the only ways for you to die in combat would be death matches or in a defensive role.

Life must be seen as a long, hard struggle. To reach Valhalla requires extraordinary actions. Not simply "overcoming personal challenges".

I'm sure this will offend most people. So be it.

[Der Einzelgänger]

You're entitled to your own interpretations of the sagas and gods. But I think I agree with most everyone else.

The times have changed, and I don't think our gods would be opposed to strong willed people who have overcome their problems to live a good life honoring the gods to get into Valhalla.

Odinism is no longer the religion of the berserkers and the warriors in the literal sense. But I think we are warriors in the fact that we are preserving our heritage and ancestors ways of life and I think the gods would see us as the most honorable and brave people of our age. We've battled against many other people pushing their faiths on us and we've decided that we should follow our ancestors. Most of us will spend our lives keeping Odinism alive, spreading it to our children and teaching them how to live a good life being an Odinist. We will die Odinists and we will die fighting a battle our ancestors had been burned and killed for, their own way of life.

[HandofTyr]

You're entitled to your own interpretations of the sagas and gods. But I think I agree with most everyone else.

The times have changed, and I don't think our gods would be opposed to strong willed people who have overcome their problems to live a good life honoring the gods to get into Valhalla.

Odinism is no longer the religion of the berserkers and the warriors in the literal sense. But I think we are warriors in the fact that we are preserving our heritage and ancestors ways of life and I think the gods would see us as the most honorable and brave people of our age. We've battled against many other people pushing their faiths on us and we've decided that we should follow our ancestors. Most of us will spend our lives keeping Odinism alive, spreading it to our children and teaching them how to live a good life being an Odinist. We will die Odinists and we will die fighting a battle our ancestors had been burned and killed for, their own way of life.

Withstanding and fighting religious opposition is extremely important. Spreading Odinism is extremely important. Overcoming personal struggles is also extremely important because if you cannot even overcome personal struggles then you will have no chance in a life and death struggle.

All of your actions are important. I was not undermining any of your efforts. I was talking specifically about warriors, death in literal combat, and reaching Valhalla.

There are two paths for the Odinist: Civil Affairs or Combat

Note: I'm not directly supporting Direct Action against any individuals or groups. Combat could also take the form of Bail Enforcement, Private Military Company operations or, for so-called "mercenary operations" (this allows you to choose the cause you fight and die for), or even Law Enforcement.

I especially encourage the men to fight in full-contact/ no-holds-barred/ mixed martial arts competitions. Also, seek out groups such as the Dog Brothers to further enhance your training. Try to find employment in a career that allows you to directly influence the "real-world" (above options).

For everyone else, I would advise you to begin physical training, maintain a healthy diet, perform wholistic health practices, and receive basic defensive tactics/ personal combatives training.

These will serve you on any "battlefield".

[Der Einzelgänger]

Withstanding and fighting religious opposition is extremely important. Spreading Odinism is extremely important. Overcoming personal struggles is also extremely important because if you cannot even overcome personal struggles then you will have no chance in a life and death struggle.

All of your actions are important. I was not undermining any of your efforts. I was talking specifically about warriors, death in literal combat, and reaching Valhalla.

Oh I know. I used to believe I would have to die in some glorious battle in order to get to Valhalla but I soon realized that might not be possible. I think we are just changing our fight from physical to spiritual. I do think that dieing in a real battle would also allow us into Valhalla, its just, when will I ever get that chance ya know? I don't think it's one way or the other, but a combination of the both.

[Loki's Advocate]

I agree with most that has been said here but after reading it all something is dwelling on my mind. Valhalla is a hall of mighty warriors. The point of this hall is that the Gods will have an army of great and powerful men come Ragnarok. So it stands to reason that only the strongest and smartest people will reach Valhalla.

And it should be said that it’s not the duty of Odinists to reach Valhalla. The Gods will decide the fate of our souls after death. I think the best thing Odinists can do is try and be the best they can be, and if that is not good enough for Valhalla, no big deal.

I could not agree more.

It's quite clear in the archaeological record of such things, and the mythological record (plus, it makes sense), that NOT EVERYONE goes to Valhalla, NOT EVERYONE who's male goes to Valhalla (this should go without saying, but nooooooo...), and NOT EVEN EVERYONE who dies in battle goes to Valhalla!

Plus, if it's the very final struggle, the biggest and worst battle of them all, why would Odin take any into his host but those who had shown the most courage of anyone since people have been people?

Courage is the most important factor: because it's the only constant element in warfare. People's ways of making war have evolved so much since people have been people, as have people, but they've always had to 'suck it up' bigtime if they wanted to really distinguish themselves in battle!


There are two paths for the Odinist: Civil Affairs or Combat

People have to stand in service to other people: otherwise, what kind of people are they?

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

There are two paths for the Odinist: Civil Affairs or Combat

Note: I'm not directly supporting Direct Action against any individuals or groups. Combat could also take the form of Bail Enforcement, Private Military Company operations or, for so-called "mercenary operations" (this allows you to choose the cause you fight and die for), or even Law Enforcement.

I especially encourage the men to fight in full-contact/ no-holds-barred/ mixed martial arts competitions. Also, seek out groups such as the Dog Brothers to further enhance your training. Try to find employment in a career that allows you to directly influence the "real-world" (above options).

For everyone else, I would advise you to begin physical training, maintain a healthy diet, perform wholistic health practices, and receive basic defensive tactics/ personal combatives training.

These will serve you on any "battlefield".

You obviously missed the whole point of my thread.

As for Mixed Martial Arts, ive done it. Had two ammature fights and trained with a few cool canadian MMA fighters. But it isnt possible for all Odinists to literally die in battle and not everyone can fight for a living. Honestly I think this is somewhat immature. Not everyone is going to die in a fight or war, you need to get that through your head, accept it and actually re read my thread and see the point I was trying to make. The lore is not meant to be taken in the literal sense so does one having died in battle really mean one has to literally die in battle? Is there something in the lore that says "If you are not murdered in a bloody and violent way you will have no place in Valhalla"?

And to the people who think I started this thread just to talk about the "great salvation of valhalla" you are wrong. I dont live my life good and do things just to earn a spot in the great hall. This thread was meant to spark conversation about the lore and its evolution to the modern world, how it fits with how we live and with that we know today that our ancestors did not know 2000 years ago.

Yggdrasil = the universe?

The nine worlds = the nine planets?

It makes you think.

[HandofTyr]

You obviously missed the whole point of my thread.

As for Mixed Martial Arts, ive done it. Had two ammature fights and trained with a few cool canadian MMA fighters. But it isnt possible for all Odinists to literally die in battle and not everyone can fight for a living. Honestly I think this is somewhat immature. Not everyone is going to die in a fight or war, you need to get that through your head, accept it and actually re read my thread and see the point I was trying to make. The lore is not meant to be taken in the literal sense so does one having died in battle really mean one has to literally die in battle? Is there something in the lore that says "If you are not murdered in a bloody and violent way you will have no place in Valhalla"?

And to the people who think I started this thread just to talk about the "great salvation of valhalla" you are wrong. I dont live my life good and do things just to earn a spot in the great hall. This thread was meant to spark conversation about the lore and its evolution to the modern world, how it fits with how we live and with that we know today that our ancestors did not know 2000 years ago.

Yggdrasil = the universe?

The nine worlds = the nine planets?

It makes you think.

You're the one who needs something through his head. I was talking to everyone in general. I recommended fighting to enhance personal skills. Use the fights as training. Full-contact sparring matches. I even stated that anyone who can't or doesn't want to fight should at least receive basic defensive tactics/ personal combatives training. That's defensive, *******. I wasn't recommending to go out and die as soon as possible.

I could give a **** less about your two amateur fights or your "cool" friends.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

You're the one who needs something through his head. I was talking to everyone in general. I recommended fighting to enhance personal skills. Use the fights as training. Full-contact sparring matches. I even stated that anyone who can't or doesn't want to fight should at least receive basic defensive tactics/ personal combatives training. That's defensive, *******. I wasn't recommending to go out and die as soon as possible.

Someone is a little defensive.

Well the fact of the matter is not everyone can get fight training, not everyone can afford to go to a training center for hours each day and learn hand to hand combat sports. Some people dont even have the time or resources to go and get basic self defence tactics courses. Of course it would be great if all Odinists could but some cant. It's a fact.



I could give a **** less about your two amateur fights or your "cool" friends.

Haha, when did I ever say you had to? :rolleyes: Grow up, You are the one who brought up MMA, I mentioned I trained with a few good guys. I never said you had to care, I was stating a fact since you brought it (MMA). End of story.

[HandofTyr]

For those of you who cannot attend/ afford courses at one of the better training facilities (Gunsite, H&K, Kroll, CQD) then I advise you to read & print off articles concerning defensive tactics. Also, try to find a good boxing gym or maybe a Krav Maga school. Brazilian Ju-Jitsu is also a good start. Obviously avoid any "Wushu" (competitions, etc.) schools as they teach nothing practical. Also, avoid most Chinese martial arts schools. Some have excellent training. Most, however, are "Wushu" oriented. As for weapons training, find a good book/ video provider that offers realistic, practical training for beginners.

Here are some sites that might help.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
http://www.blayshalla.com/Blaise/MainFrame/MainFrame.htm (Go to "Products" then click "Products" (yes, twice) then click "DVD's" and scroll down.) (Check out the entire site)
http://www.hockscqc.com
http://www.gabesuarez.com/

[Ausswolf]

I can see why people would want to view valhalla as just another metaphor these days. I initially thought this way too however a few years on I believe valhalla as a metaphor is the easy way out. Plus is just seems a little too 'new age' to me.

Promoting Odinism, personal struggle, living a good life by the nine noble virtues should be the least a true Odinist does. That does not mean it will grant you a seat in the halls of valhalla. I believe to get there, you have to die as a great warrior protecting faith, folk or family. That is the purpose of valhalla is it not? These warriors do in death what they did in life, train and fight until our people need them again.

I myself have done some military service, martial arts/kickboxing, weights, push my mind through university and personal education etc. I believe this should be the way for all modern odinists who see themselves as part of the warrior tradition. I do not however think this makes me deserving of a place in valhalla.
Briefly, just because we live in a modern world doesn't mean we live in a safe, just world. I believe that our folk is under great threat, and its possible in the near future when the chickens come home to roost this will turn into real physical combat.

Remember there are alot of other possibilites in death besides the famous valhalla.
Not all Asatru are loyal to odin first and foremost, and not all of those are warriors. Not all these warriors are deserving of valhalla. The path we take in life determines our path in death.

[Sigurd]

Hmm concerning back to the dying in Battle.

I believe that things like defending the faith, defending your friends, and fight for what you think is right is very important and is a battle of its own. If you die for the sake of protecting many friends with it, and if you are willing to die for your cause, then you might as well be qualified as you have died in the battle you fought all your life. Of course I would die for my fatherland, would it engage in war, for I feel obliged to fight for my country when necessary, but unless it is necessary it would be very unwise. Which is why I see the expression of dying in battle as metaphorical. In our times, it has to be altered slightly and I believe that if you never give up the fight etc. then you may be qualified to reach Valhalla. It can be literal, but may be metaphorical.

[æinvargR]

Dying in battle today isn't as grand as it used to be. You could suspect nothing and suddenly everything goes black from a sniper's bullet, or you die in an explosion, etc. It's not the same thing as going head to head with spears and shields, where you know that this is it - I will die or I will be victorious - and where you're more or less equally prepared and fight on the same conditions.

Going to war and dying in battle was common at least amongst the Vikings, they definitely didn't see this metaphorically. The question is if we should? Should we leave it as it is; that only by truely dying bravely in battle, you have the chance to reach the golden hall, meaning virtually no one will ever enter the golden halls again - or should we alter it, the faith, according to our life styles of today? If we alter it, it should be in a way that can be accepted by all Asatruar. Else the ones changing will be nothing but an off-shoot.

If Asatru didn't suffer this interruption because of Christianity, maybe it (the aspect of who goes to Valhalla etc) would have evolved with how war changed. Although I think the wars of 200 years ago were still basic enough - and deaths in battle more common than today - so that development would have happened the last one or two hundred years or so. Still I think the change would've come more naturally as religion, at least when not very organized or controlled, reflects culture or ways of life.

Either way I, like some others in this thread, think that what most of you consider to be enough to reach Valhalla by interpreting this part of the faith metaphorically, is what should be expected from anyone. Valhalla is supposed to be a special place. I'm mostly for keeping it as it is/was.

Einvargr

[Der Einzelgänger]

Considering most of us won't make it to Valhalla, where then, would we go? Hel? Or are there other places? I know other gods have their own halls but I'm not to sure about if it's required that you be dead or a god to enter them...

[Loki's Advocate]

Einzelganger, talking in terms of the god's halls, I guess one would enter a god's hall in much the same way as one enters Valhalla: by serving that god during life in some extraordinary way during life. Otherwise, I guess people just end up in Hel. Hel's not meant to be so bad: even Balder ends up there when he snuffs it. It's described in much the same terms as Dante describes Purgatory: kinda quiet, but no-one wants to go any lower 'down'.

I dunno: I'd like to believe that people can decide what happens to them after they die (or don't, for people who've read the Men of Good Fortune Sandman episode, or are familiar with the late 18th century legend of Ahasuerus), but realistically, I think you choose when you're alive, and then you don't choose once you're dead. Whether you do transmigrate, or just rot, is anyone's guess.

[Der Einzelgänger]

I know Hel isn't a bad place, but I mean, if you could avoid going there and end up in a certain gods hall, would that not be much better?

I read on godchecker.com that Thor's hall is called Bilskinir, but no mortal has ever ventured there.
Thrudheim (http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=THRUDHEIM)

[Sigurd]

I know Hel isn't a bad place, but I mean, if you could avoid going there and end up in a certain gods hall, would that not be much better?

I read on godchecker.com that Thor's hall is called Bilskinir, but no mortal has ever ventured there.
Thrudheim (http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=THRUDHEIM)

Hmmm...yeah the golden hall is definitely a better one :D

Hmm Thor's Halls... hmmm...

[Loki's Advocate]

Yeah, I would prefer to end up in one of the other god's halls, but don't know how exactly and don't think it's a good idea to be too 'pushy' with the gods. I'm content to let the chips fall where they may, and just get on with things.

I assume Freya also takes humans after death as her companions and servants in a like manner to Odin, in her capacity as Val-freya, but there's no way to know for sure in what capacity they serve.

I mean, those who the valkyjor choose for Odin become the einheriar, so who is to say that a portion of those the valkyjor choose for Freya don't also go to Freya's hall after death? Because it's a theme that reoccurs that Freya takes a portion of the dead in a like manner to Odin.

[Sigurd]

Why not... I just don't want to end up waiting for nothing... just don't want to inhabit the Earth itself forever. :rolleyes:

[Ausswolf]

Found this on Wikepedia... i wasnt aware of the 3 levels...

Niflheim ("Mistland") is the realm of ice and cold in Norse Mythology. It is located north of Ginnungagap and there dwells the Rimtursir and here is also Helgardh located. Niflheim is ruled by the goddess Hel, daughter to Loki by a giantess, personally appointed by Odin to rule over Niflheim. Half of her body was normal, while the other half was that of a rotting corpse. Niflheim was broken into several layers. One level was designed for heroes and gods, where Hel would preside over the festivities for them. Another was reserved for the elderly, the sick, and those who were unable to die gloriously in battle and enter Valhalla. The lowest level resembled the Christian version of Hell, where the wicked were forced to live forever.

[Loki's Advocate]

Another was reserved for the elderly, the sick, and those who were unable to die gloriously in battle and enter Valhalla.

That's absolutely hilarious. Not what it says, but how that sentence is built. :D

I dunno about Wikipedia sometimes. It's useful, but people really can just put any old ****e in their entries and it gets published in 'their' entry for a topic. I would not be at all surprised if there turned out to be groups of people who worked/are working at tilting certain Wikipedia entries in certain ways, because it would be easy enough with a few people.

[Sigurd]

and some information on Wikipedia is sometimes hard to grasp. Looked up something on Chemistry and on bonds it told me something about the atoms being "nucleophile" :rolleyes:

[Ravenous]

Hmm concerning back to the dying in Battle.

I believe that things like defending the faith, defending your friends, and fight for what you think is right is very important and is a battle of its own. If you die for the sake of protecting many friends with it, and if you are willing to die for your cause, then you might as well be qualified as you have died in the battle you fought all your life. Of course I would die for my fatherland, would it engage in war, for I feel obliged to fight for my country when necessary, but unless it is necessary it would be very unwise. Which is why I see the expression of dying in battle as metaphorical. In our times, it has to be altered slightly and I believe that if you never give up the fight etc. then you may be qualified to reach Valhalla. It can be literal, but may be metaphorical.

I agree with this