I'm convinced that BJJ has a lot to answer for...

[Loki's Advocate]

... although mainly for the good old line that 'it's a good idea to go to ground in a fight'. It might be in UFC or Pride or some other 'controlled' fighting environment, but in real life, I'm not so sure it's always such a good idea.

An example: Last night, while we were sitting and having a few quiet ones in the garden bar at the local, a couple of inebriated chaps decided the best way to solve their differences was to step outside for a bit of physically-interactive conflict resolution.

From where we were sitting, we had a 'nice' view of proceedings.

A few punches and kicks were thrown, the the distance was closed, and one tripped the other and they both went down to the ground. This was on a tarmac surface with lots of bits of blue gravel sticking out of the surface (good for traction in the rain, apparently)... so after rolling around for a bit, and a bit of punching and gouging, one cried out 'OK, OK, enough!', and the other got off him and walked away.

The 'funny' thing was that BOTH of them got absolutely cut to ribbons by the gravel on the ground.

In fact, the injuries they got incidentally from the surface were a lot worse than those they inflicted on each other. The 'winner' sustained quite a few nasty cuts on his arms and face, as well as a whole lot of big nasty grazes all over his limbs. And the other fared little better, missing most of the skin on the palms of his hands, his elbows, and his knees and lower legs.

The moral is? Don't get into stupid fights in the first place. Particularly not on the ground in pub car-parks. And if you must, for the Gods' sake, put down a jig-saw mat first! :D

[aud_friggsdottir]

Very much agreed...but then a street fight is very different than UFC and Pride fights!

But in your story it did go to the ground and ones ability to at least keep his/her head in such a position is definitely a benefit, even if it means being scraped up!

FFF
Kathy

[Schwarzesonne]

At least in this case the conflict was a 1/1 situation. Most street fights aren’t.

The problem I see with BJJ or any other grappling system applied toward street fighting is that it only allows for conflict with one “client” at a time. So while you’re theoretically putting me in some painful hold my buddy is kicking you in the back of the head of sticking a knife into your kidney.

[Don vonMilikowski]

Hmmm..... fair and fight in the same sentence.....

I know when my chips are down I like to bring out a friend or two (usually to add a bit of "pling" to my punch, or more speed - see profile picture); a fight with me - I may not win but you will not want to play with me again.

[Teufelhunden]

That is why I always use to get a laugh out of Little Jon when he was here. He use to blather on about Pride and UFC, and when any real combat fighting came up he would always run on about " it would not work in the ring" or " that system sucks" ... well little man real fights are not meant to drag on with tons of dancing about and air kicking... Fast, violent and permanent is the name of real combat fighting and usually to the death ASAP.... Personally I find UFC to be so much D!ck waving... my opinion though

[wodenschild]

I think the usefull thing about the MMA scene ,is that the participants get "used" to recieving full contact blows from a variety if angles , whether standing or prone. To do this there obviously has to be a controlled enviroment, hence the ring. I dont think any style/system is infallible, and none can prepare practitioners "totally" for the spectacle that lokis advocate witnessed. But that said any art which gives that particular person more confidence to tackle such an incident if it did arise, then good. And any style that trains an individual to avoid trouble then even better.My old instructor told me that the first line of self-defense is ." Run like hel". :D

[wodenschild]

Hmmm..... fair and fight in the same sentence.....

I know when my chips are down I like to bring out a friend or two (usually to add a bit of "pling" to my punch, or more speed - see profile picture); a fight with me - I may not win but you will not want to play with me again.


Then again ive heard of a new Instructor in the Phoenix Arizona area, practicing a system that uses weapons called Don Von Milikowski-Do.(lol). Have to look out for that style. :D

[ulfnsson]

I think there is some confusion between the terms BJJ and MMA. Bjj is a system that relys heavily on getting your opponent to the ground. MMA is a mixture of it all standing clinching and grappling. In this respect you have a good idea what to do no matter what happens you can at least survive. I myself train in MMA but in a street altercation I practice win at all costs do and bring a friend do.

[Vanatru]

Then again ive heard of a new Instructor in the Phoenix Arizona area, practicing a system that uses weapons called Don Von Milikowski-Do.(lol). Have to look out for that style. :D

Ah yes..........the "Hair Bag" style. Most deadly. The eye brow piercing of pain is an apt way to subdue an opponent. ;)

[Loki's Advocate]

Don't get me wrong- there's a lot of good fighters in UFC and Pride, an awful lot.

But the importance of ground-wrestling in these tournaments, has helped to give people the wrong idea- that because UFC and Pride are truly MMA competitions (and they are), that they're a good approximation of real-life conditions.

Which they're not.

I said BJJ initially because of the dominance of BJJ in early UFC tournaments, which really was what started the whole thing in the first place.

[Airmanareiks]

I think BJJ is fine 1 on 1. But, summission is different in reality. You break the person's arm or strangle him, rather lettting him tap. With multiple fighters, you want distance, to take on a fighter 1 on 1. To groundfight with multiple opponents invites an beating.

You have to consider the environment, but ground fighting is probably the safest way to win a fight. Depending on what you are wearing, you will probably get scraps. But you may also do much more serious injury to your opponent with throws and slams (which is more wrestling).

[Loki's Advocate]

With multiple fighters, you want distance

I think in that circumstance, you have to make it so they're getting in each other's way (and can only strike you one at a time, which evens the odds up), so they can't all line up (or make a circle around you, even worse) and use you as a punch-and-kick bag. That really sucks, y'know...

Throwing, tripping, or 'guiding' people by the arm and wrist into other people is always a good tactic- it tangles them up together and takes them out of the picture, if only temporarily. And it means you have a chance to strike at them without their having the chance to strike back.

Of course, running away, or having friends around (or just 'a little friend'), is always the best thing.

[Bladesinger]

So while you’re theoretically putting me in some painful hold my buddy is kicking you in the back of the head of sticking a knife into your kidney.

And the flipside is, that while your buddy is theoretically sticking a knife in my kidney, my buddy is sticking a knife in your buddie's kidney.

Not that you're wrong, but I see this oh so often when bjj/any grappling art is discussed. As if those folks don't have friends too. We could do this dance all day, I'm just saying detractors would do well to remember that they aren't the only ones walking around in public with thier friends.

[mikeandchanda1488]

As with anything, you must be a well rounded individual. That stands true for anything in life. Ground fighting is only going to benefit you if the situation is right. If you're fighting anymore than two people, you probably want to run. There is no honor in going to the hospital because you've got something to prove. If you know yourself a capable martial artist, you find you don't get in many fights. BJJ won't help if you can't get an opponent down or if when you do they have a boot party on your face. BJJ is but one facet of a well rounded fighter. You also need stand up, Take down defense, take downs, and above all intelligence. Fighting smart is the most important skill to posses, and that includes when, where, and if to fight.