this doens't sound right.

[Mike_76]

Someone on another list posted this:

The Scandinavian situation has a great deal to do with the natural environment, and the cultural impact of the religion. The extraordinary civilization that Scandinavia built once they began to Christianize, and founded in the early stages of the viking era, in my view, bares witness to that fact..

he makes it sound like the scandinavia culture didn't do much of anything until it became Christian. He tends to come up with some strange things.

Does anybody know more on this, or can you direct me to some information on this point?

thanks

[Mike_76]

I'm going to try to answer my own question. How can a culture go from a system (odinism), which to me seems 3-dimensional or even 4, for lack of a better way of saying it , and works with reality, and switch to a system (xtianity) that to me seems 2-dimensional and works against reality and somehow start to advance :confused:

what am I missing :confused:

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

You are not missing anything, whoever made that comment is a moron, plain and simple.

Things our ancestors used long before Christaianity:

trial by jury
parliaments
Anglo Saxon Common Law
The right to bear arms
The rights of women

Taken from Stephen McNallen's "Asatru FAQ"


Wasn't the acceptance of Christianity a sign of civilization - a step up from barbarism?
No. The so-called "barbarians" who followed Asatru (the Vikings, the various Germanic tribes, and so forth) were the source of our finest civilized traditions - trial by jury, parliaments, Anglo Saxon Common Law, the right to bear arms, and the rights of women, to name a few. Our very word "law" comes from the Norse language, not from the tongues of the Christian lands. We simply did not, and do not, need Christianity or other Middle Eastern creeds in order to be civilized.

[Mike_76]

Well he is talking specifically about the Scandinavians, who I believe were quite advanced. I believe they constructed ships that were well ahead of the time. They were conquering other civilizations long before Xtianity showed up, weren't they. Showing this guy the Steve McNallen FAQ is a waste of time, because he thinks Asatru is only 30 year old!

Yep, he is a moron all right, and is really disrupting the list. I might do a more scholarly inquiry into this, with dates. etc. He needs another B***-slapping, but it is kind of waste of time, and he is too dense to learn, but still it would be good for my education, so maybe I can find some use for him.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

The term "Asatru" to refer to our folkway isnt very old, it does mean "Belief in the aesir" or "belief in the gods" but you have to remember our ancestors before the coming of the disease known as Christianity did not have a name for our faith because it was more than mere "Religion" to them, it was a whole way of being, it was life to them. This person is obviously a moron with no education on our folkway so dont waste your time.

[calumthug]

It may be a waste of time for the person who posted thatn message, but how does everyone else feel about him? It may be worth it to refute his statement in a level-headed and fact-based manner so that everyone else on the list gets to see it. Just a suggestion from someone who does not know any of the surrounding circumstances.

Ryan

[Liffrea]

It may be a waste of time for the person who posted thatn message, but how does everyone else feel about him? It may be worth it to refute his statement in a level-headed and fact-based manner so that everyone else on the list gets to see it. Just a suggestion from someone who does not know any of the surrounding circumstances.

I can see your point. His ignorant clap-trap spreads lies about our faith amongst those who might be disinclined to find out for themselves. On the other hand you could be flogging a dead horse, trying to have a rational debate. Anyone willing to distort the facts as much as he has, has no time for reason.

[Mike_76]

It may be a waste of time for the person who posted thatn message, but how does everyone else feel about him? It may be worth it to refute his statement in a level-headed and fact-based manner so that everyone else on the list gets to see it. Just a suggestion from someone who does not know any of the surrounding circumstances.

Ryan

Good point. I agree also, the "level headed" approach would probably be the best way to go for public appearance sake. I can PM the addy to the list, but it's a yahoo group and a person has to join first to actually see it. I don't mean to hijack THIS group in order to deal with another group, and I doubt Hved or White Horse would let me anyway.

Also I understand that the word is only 30 year old, and that it's a descriptive word (although Mr. McNallen mentioned he brought the term here to America in 1972, so it might be older as a descriptive word)......I really don't know what this guy is, he might just be mentally whacked out, period, or some sort of forum disturber.

[aud_friggsdottir]

The reason our Folk did great things before and after christianity is because they were/are our Folk. No dogma or foreign doctrine is going to change our DNA.

Christianity bent to our collective Will...not the other way around. Christianity was Germanicized to fit our Folkways.

He IS a MORON. People like this do not deserve your time or energy.

[Mike_76]

The reason our Folk did great things before and after christianity is because they were/are our Folk. No dogma or foreign doctrine is going to change our DNA.

Christianity bent to our collective Will...not the other way around. Christianity was Germanicized to fit our Folkways.

I feel that if we've done anything as Xtians, as a people, it's not BECAUSE of xtiniaty, it's IN SPITE OF xtianity.


He IS a MORON. People like this do not deserve your time or energy.

Yes, I know, I couldn't agree more. But, I might take it up as a learning experience, as it would force me to delve into scandinavian history in order to rebuff. I'd have to find dates of the eras, etc.

[aud_friggsdottir]

The Scandinavian situation has a great deal to do with the natural environment, and the cultural impact of the religion. The extraordinary civilization that Scandinavia built once they began to Christianize, and founded in the early stages of the viking era, in my view, bares witness to that fact..


LOL..sorry one last comment....Let me get this straight...the Vikings were christian??? If that was the case, why attack Lindisfarne (excuse my early morning spelling)? Later Vikings began to become christians *later*!! So the late Viking era (you know after they had already traveled the world as Heathens in those longships...this idiot thinks didn't happen until after christianity) they STARTED to become christian then only here and there and then only the aristocracy...christianity is a religion about power and wealth...not spirituality.

Ok...rant off.

[aud_friggsdottir]

I feel that if we've done anything as Xtians, as a people, it's not BECAUSE of xtiniaty, it's IN SPITE OF xtianity.


:)...exactly....it wasn't called the dark ages for nothin!

FFF

[Mike_76]

LOL..sorry one last comment....Let me get this straight...the Vikings were christian??? If that was the case, why attack Lindisfarne (excuse my early morning spelling)? Later Vikings began to become christians *later*!! So the late Viking era (you know after they had already traveled the world as Heathens in those longships...this idiot thinks didn't happen until after christianity) they STARTED to become christian then only here and there and then only the aristocracy...christianity is a religion about power and wealth...not spirituality.

Ok...rant off.

I know, this guy is a bit maddening to deal with :)

I do see Odinism as a religion of power and wealth also, as well as spirituality, but from a different veiwpoint, that I can't quite put into words just yet. One that doesn't exploit our Kin.

Can you post a link to a timeline of some sort that you know of, aud_friggsdottir? I am thinking an online exyclopedia, something that would be considered objective and not "in the faith" so to speak, as it will be rejected out of hand as being "biased."

[aud_friggsdottir]

Actually, on longships alone...you could check out the scientific american site...they did a massive piece on longships that traced their development. They are something like 13,000 years old from the first dugout canoe found in Norway to the beautiful longships of the Viking era. Longships are a beautiful example of our Folk's mastery of not only shipbuilding and artistic design, but seamanship that predates the desert religion by hundreds of thousands of years. The lapstrake design that is unique to longships is something that developed over several thousands of years.

I think you should challenge this "person" to come up with a timeline that is historically accurate with archaelogical evidence that...say...the longship didn't develop until after christianity. And this person has to do so outside of the christian community.

Basically, he can't, so really it would end the conversation. Fortunately for us, archaeology is on our side. We don't have to prove anything...it has already been proven for centuries.

FFF

[Mike_76]

Thank you, this is just what I needed. :D On a personal note, finding Odinism is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. If anyone had tried to make Xtianty "work" and suffered though all that, and then somehow stumble onto Odinism (although technically I should call it "Wodanism" in my case, being german, but that's kind of a non-issue with me), you know what I mean.

If I do this, I think I will address it more to the people who might be reading rather than the first person. He's already been flogged twice anyway, LOL

[The Divine Cynic]

Heilsa all,

A couple of things. Firstly, to say that enviroment has nothing to do with the formation of culture is just plain silly; however it is also silly to say that Germanic cultures only did anything of significance post-Christian conversion. It is perhaps the most consistant fact among humans that we are able to do great & horrible things regardless race/ethnicity, culture, or religion.

Secondly, there seems a lot of heathen pride on the boards & that is well; however let us not fall into the trap that the Christian/Islamic faiths have. The faith & ways of the Folk is no more better then any other. There are plenty of people living quite satisfying & fufilled lives in other cultural traditions & faiths. Odinism/asatru is my faith & the best choice for myself & my house; however, it may not be for other people (even those of Germanic descent).

Thirdly, as to the "Dark Ages", the title itself is fairly misleading. The situation was more complex & little to do with religion frankly. As a historian I can tell you the Medieval period is a very complex one & defies neat little labels. Also saying that the folk achieved great things "in spite of Christianity" is pretty silly. Ultimately it does a disservice to the facts. The Folk have done great things no matter their faith. Sometimes their faith (whether heathen or Christian) inspired them, sometimes it didn't. Others have given several examples of pre-Christian Germanic achievements. Hospitals, universities, bound books, & literacy common to all citizens can be listed as European achievements linked to Christianity.

I think my overall point here is that the original poster mentioned (the one from the other list) is at best ill-informed. However, we can got too far as well. I am not in favor of downing any faith.

[Katia]

Secondly, there seems a lot of heathen pride on the boards & that is well; however let us not fall into the trap that the Christian/Islamic faiths have. The faith & ways of the Folk is no more better then any other. There are plenty of people living quite satisfying & fufilled lives in other cultural traditions & faiths. Odinism/asatru is my faith & the best choice for myself & my house; however, it may not be for other people (even those of Germanic descent).



I truly don't understand how a folkish heathen could possibly say that worshipping a foreign, desert god could be the best choice for some of our people. Our gods created us, don't you think it would be a slap in the face to them if we decided to worship another folk's deity?!

I agree to an extent with what you write, "The faith & ways of our Folk are no better than any others'. " (spelling errors corrected on my end). Every folks' faith is the best FOR THEM, as they are all honoring their ancestors and preserving their heritage. Look at the society around us! Half of all our people's marriages fail, children are lost and have no sense of honor or real genetic pride, the family structure is breaking at the seems, violence is rampant, etc etc. This is the result of distancing ourselves from our heritage. I won't hate modern day Christians due to their beliefs, not at all, but I do not agree with it. Again, I don't see how any truly folkish heathen could...

[Mike_76]

Heilsa all,

A couple of things. Firstly, to say that enviroment has nothing to do with the formation of culture is just plain silly; however it is also silly to say that Germanic cultures only did anything of significance post-Christian conversion. It is perhaps the most consistant fact among humans that we are able to do great & horrible things regardless race/ethnicity, culture, or religion.

Greetings, The Divine Cynic, thanks for posting. I wanted to say that I see that Katia has posted after you, but I haven't read her response, prefering this to be my own authentic reply without being influenced by those more experienced, so if I am being repetative, please forgive me.

I don't recall anyone saying that our Kin never did anything of significance, Post-Christian conversion, but yes I agree with you. I do think that race/ethnicity, culture, or religion, probably envirionment do play a part in the great and horrible things that the human race is able to do...I mean I don't see how those factors can be seperated out.



Secondly, there seems a lot of heathen pride on the boards & that is well; however let us not fall into the trap that the Christian/Islamic faiths have. The faith & ways of the Folk is no more better then any other. There are plenty of people living quite satisfying & fufilled lives in other cultural traditions & faiths. Odinism/asatru is my faith & the best choice for myself & my house; however, it may not be for other people (even those of Germanic descent).

I have some very hard feelings about Christianity at this point..it might be normal in this stage of my development....I feel I'm supposed to say something like "christianity might be the best choice for some people of Germanic background" but I really don't quite believe it. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, which is fairly big in the midwest, USA and there are some very fine Christian folk in the church system. But I do think Xtianity as a belief system is poison for those like me....I can't prove it of course, but I can imagine an alternative reality where Xtianty never came into being, and in that alternative universe, I think we'd be colonizing Mars by now, or advanced to a point we can't imagine. I think Maybe Xtianity might be great for those of jewish or Hebrew backgrounds, but I just can't see it best for Europeans..IMO of course. Maybe I will change my mind in time.

I DO know that no matter how great a persons lineage might be and whatever potential a person might have, or their situation, they still have to get off their backsides and develop themselves, otherwise it doesn't really matter.



Thirdly, as to the "Dark Ages", the title itself is fairly misleading. The situation was more complex & little to do with religion frankly. As a historian I can tell you the Medieval period is a very complex one & defies neat little labels. Also saying that the folk achieved great things "in spite of Christianity" is pretty silly. Ultimately it does a disservice to the facts. The Folk have done great things no matter their faith. Sometimes their faith (whether heathen or Christian) inspired them, sometimes it didn't. Others have given several examples of pre-Christian Germanic achievements. Hospitals, universities, bound books, & literacy common to all citizens can be listed as European achievements linked to Christianity.

I think my overall point here is that the original poster mentioned (the one from the other list) is at best ill-informed. However, we can got too far as well. I am not in favor of downing any faith.

He is an odd one and I suspect he might be trying to stir up dissent just for the sake of doing it.

But again, It's my opinion but I do think Xtianity as a belief system or religion might not be the best choice for europeans in general. It might be silly from your viewpoint, but it makes sense to me, from my experience, having walked in both paths, and considering myself more or less a "typical" german or one of european background....it might not be fair to generalize from just my experience and just observation more than real research. I certainly can't dictate what others do.

Thanks for your input.

[aud_friggsdottir]

Heilsa all,

A couple of things. Firstly, to say that enviroment has nothing to do with the formation of culture is just plain silly; however it is also silly to say that Germanic cultures only did anything of significance post-Christian conversion. It is perhaps the most consistant fact among humans that we are able to do great & horrible things regardless race/ethnicity, culture, or religion.

Uh...where did anyone say this...it is the christians that say nothing of significance was done until the "advent of christianity". I said that is BS. Everything is nurture and nature, but without the nature as the basis...nurture won't have a fertile ground in which to grow, hence the Germanization of christianity.


Secondly, there seems a lot of heathen pride on the boards & that is well; however let us not fall into the trap that the Christian/Islamic faiths have. The faith & ways of the Folk is no more better then any other. There are plenty of people living quite satisfying & fufilled lives in other cultural traditions & faiths. Odinism/asatru is my faith & the best choice for myself & my house; however, it may not be for other people (even those of Germanic descent).

Our Folkway is best for Our Folk. Chrisitianity is fine for middle easterners... as a matter of fact it is best suited to them. Anyone can be anything they want it is called freedom, but to say it is right and positive for them is a completely different thing. With this I disagree. Christianity is for the weak and lowly, but their is a better way for Our Folk...Odinism/Asatru/etc... is it. Christianity was the worst thing that could have ever happened to our People.



Thirdly, as to the "Dark Ages", the title itself is fairly misleading. The situation was more complex & little to do with religion frankly. As a historian I can tell you the Medieval period is a very complex one & defies neat little labels. Also saying that the folk achieved great things "in spite of Christianity" is pretty silly.

How exactly? Medieval period isn't any more complex than anything prior to the Medieval period or the Renaissance, etc... Making things so "complex" only serves apathy....people bombarded with so many differing opinions creates a situation to not care about any of it. This is continually used by "historians" so they don't have to take a hardline on anything. Also, it is an OPINION of what the evidence show, not fact. Opinions can be argued all day...never going anywhere, and again only serving up a large dose of apathy. I have heard they are going to rename the "Dark Ages" since it isn't very complimentary to christians...how convenient.

Our Folk did achieve IN SPITE of christianity and in spite of "witch burnings", Inquisition, biblical law (if you can call it that), superstition (killing all the cats because they were "evil"), totalitarianism, backward medicine...yup we sure achieved despite all that a true testament to our Folk's perseverance.


Ultimately it does a disservice to the facts. The Folk have done great things no matter their faith. Sometimes their faith (whether heathen or Christian) inspired them, sometimes it didn't. Others have given several examples of pre-Christian Germanic achievements. Hospitals, universities, bound books, & literacy common to all citizens can be listed as European achievements linked to Christianity.

No it is linked to our Folk regardless of some dogma from a last 1500 + years...in fact that is just a drop in the ocean of time. Put it this way...our Folk wouldn't have had "Hospitals, Universities, Bound Books, and Literacy" without Christianity? In fact many of our Cousins (Romans, Greeks, etc...) had these very same things BEFORE christianity......


I think my overall point here is that the original poster mentioned (the one from the other list) is at best ill-informed. However, we can got too far as well. I am not in favor of downing any faith.

Ya well I am not in favor of worrying about anyone elses faith they have enough 'bright minds' worrying about it...I am worried about Ours, Our Folk, Our Folkway....Just because there are good people that are christians doesn't mean that christianity is good...it means the people are good regardless of some foreign religion. Imagine how much better they would be if they followed their Folkways........ ;)

[The Divine Cynic]

I truly don't understand how a folkish heathen could possibly say that worshipping a foreign, desert god could be the best choice for some of our people. Our gods created us, don't you think it would be a slap in the face to them if we decided to worship another folk's deity?!

I agree to an extent with what you write, "The faith & ways of our Folk are no better than any others'. " (spelling errors corrected on my end). Every folks' faith is the best FOR THEM, as they are all honoring their ancestors and preserving their heritage. Look at the society around us! Half of all our people's marriages fail, children are lost and have no sense of honor or real genetic pride, the family structure is breaking at the seems, violence is rampant, etc etc. This is the result of distancing ourselves from our heritage. I won't hate modern day Christians due to their beliefs, not at all, but I do not agree with it. Again, I don't see how any truly folkish heathen could...

Where to begin. Firstly, you give a laundry list of societal ills we face today. Germanic heathen culture possessed its own laundry list as well. All cultures have failings. Also as to failed marriages, remember divorce was an allowable practice as least among some Germanic tribes. As to genetic pride, it can a good thing or a bad thing. Our heritage is both a good & bad thing, just like everyone elses. Acknowledging the failures of our people is as important as glorying in their triumphs.

Now as to whether the gods created the germanic people, there is a problem with believing that they literally did. Evolution is a fact. The eddas were never intended to be read as a history textbook. They are religious epic poetry & work in the language of metaphor. The universe is not literally a giant tree. Yggdrasil is a metaphor to teach deeper meaning. That is not to say that the wights & deities of the lore not literal beings. They are & the gods & my forefathers have my love & fealty.

This sort of thinking really is similiar to fundamentalist Protestant Christian thinking common in the US. They claim the idea of heritage as well.

Ultimately, religion is each individual's choice. It is not my place nor yours to tell anyone what faith they should practice. It is foolish to talk about how much better heathenism is for Europeans then Christianity.

I do believe that heathenism is a benefit to my life & I am true to it. I honor the gods & my forefathers. I am a member of the Folk. However, I am not able to say that my way is better for anyone else. Of course true heathens don't agree with Christianity, or they wouldn't be heathen, they would be Christian.

The Christian deity has as much to do with YHWH (the foreign desert god you mentioned) as the Allfather does. Modern Christianity has far more to do with Greco-Roman thought, the other mystery cults of Rome, & European paleopaganism then Judaism. Modern Christianity (by that I mean post-Nicene) is really a mishmash of a lot of elements of a lot of faiths. How did, & do, the gods react to it? I don't know & neither do you. Odin is quite known for doing strange things for the betterment of his people. Who knows?

I do believe that Germanic culture, heritage, & traditions are worth preserving. Nay they are vital. I do my part to do just that. I take pride in the culture of our people. I am far more concerned with living a life of honor & troth then saying how great it is to be heathen.

[The Divine Cynic]

Greetings, The Divine Cynic, thanks for posting. I wanted to say that I see that Katia has posted after you, but I haven't read her response, prefering this to be my own authentic reply without being influenced by those more experienced, so if I am being repetative, please forgive me.

I don't recall anyone saying that our Kin never did anything of significance, Post-Christian conversion, but yes I agree with you. I do think that race/ethnicity, culture, or religion, probably envirionment do play a part in the great and horrible things that the human race is able to do...I mean I don't see how those factors can be seperated out.



I have some very hard feelings about Christianity at this point..it might be normal in this stage of my development....I feel I'm supposed to say something like "christianity might be the best choice for some people of Germanic background" but I really don't quite believe it. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, which is fairly big in the midwest, USA and there are some very fine Christian folk in the church system. But I do think Xtianity as a belief system is poison for those like me....I can't prove it of course, but I can imagine an alternative reality where Xtianty never came into being, and in that alternative universe, I think we'd be colonizing Mars by now, or advanced to a point we can't imagine. I think Maybe Xtianity might be great for those of jewish or Hebrew backgrounds, but I just can't see it best for Europeans..IMO of course. Maybe I will change my mind in time.

I DO know that no matter how great a persons lineage might be and whatever potential a person might have, or their situation, they still have to get off their backsides and develop themselves, otherwise it doesn't really matter.



He is an odd one and I suspect he might be trying to stir up dissent just for the sake of doing it.

But again, It's my opinion but I do think Xtianity as a belief system or religion might not be the best choice for europeans in general. It might be silly from your viewpoint, but it makes sense to me, from my experience, having walked in both paths, and considering myself more or less a "typical" german or one of european background....it might not be fair to generalize from just my experience and just observation more than real research. I certainly can't dictate what others do.



Thanks for your input.

Mike,

Thank you for your well reasoned & eloquent response.

Firstly, I was not trying to sat that anyone had implied Germanic acheivement stopped with the advent of Christianity. Your pardon if I came across that way, it was not my intent. I was trying to show that our forefathers were inspired at times to great things because of Christianity. It is testament to the great men & women among our ancestors. No religion or culture is totally right or good & no religion is totally wrong or evil.

Secondly, Christianity is most likely a poison for everyone like us. But not every person of Germanic descent is like us. People are individuals & have to be taken as such or we start down a very slippery slope that leads to prejudice & racism. I am a former Christian myself. I understand you anger with that faith. I have been there. However, I can't say what faith is better for others, I am not them. It is not my place to say. I can work to show an example & if others come seeking then help them any way I can.

I don't know what the world would have been like without Christianity. Maybe it would have been better, maybe worse. Not everything about our ancestors was good. Some of it was downright bad. I honor my heritage & culture with my eyes open & don't worry about anyone else's faith. Mine is enough for me & my house.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

Where to begin. Firstly, you give a laundry list of societal ills we face today. Germanic heathen culture possessed its own laundry list as well. All cultures have failings. Also as to failed marriages, remember divorce was an allowable practice as least among some Germanic tribes. As to genetic pride, it can a good thing or a bad thing. Our heritage is both a good & bad thing, just like everyone elses. Acknowledging the failures of our people is as important as glorying in their triumphs.

I agree that we all have things we need to work on in our faith, one of the biggest problems we do face is the Chrisitanization of our lore. Genetic pride IS a good thing, as long as it does not follow any "Supremacy" ways of thinking. Every Folk or Race of people should be proud of their background, their own unique culture and ancestral ways because it is who they are. I agree with acknowledging the errors out folk have made in the past (I would not call them failures though) and striving to better ourselfs as a collective group. Our folkway has always been one based on evolution, growing and becoming a better generation than the last.



Now as to whether the gods created the germanic people, there is a problem with believing that they literally did. Evolution is a fact. The eddas were never intended to be read as a history textbook. They are religious epic poetry & work in the language of metaphor. The universe is not literally a giant tree. Yggdrasil is a metaphor to teach deeper meaning. That is not to say that the wights & deities of the lore not literal beings. They are & the gods & my forefathers have my love & fealty.

Our "Gods" created US, the Germanic/Teutonic peoples and no one else. Our Gods & Goddesses, the lore and the creation myths are the ways our ancestors related to the creating forces in nature.

And I dont think you need to be telling Katia that our Lore and Myths are not meant to be taken in the literal sense, afterall she IS now in charge of the Norroena Society (See my signature for the link). Our lore and myths are ours and how our folk and eldest ancestors viewed the world and creation. With that comes the ideals of ancestry, blood, genetics and the folkish view come into place. Just as our Germanic/Teutonic folk had their own ways of viewing the world so do every other group of people. That is why we believe the ways of our ancestors (Odinism, Asatru, Irminen, Ford Sed ect ect) are the best ways for OUR people. Its more than just "Religion" or "Culture", its a whole system and way of being. It is how one views the world and everything around them.


This sort of thinking really is similiar to fundamentalist Protestant Christian thinking common in the US. They claim the idea of heritage as well.

Ultimately, religion is each individual's choice. It is not my place nor yours to tell anyone what faith they should practice. It is foolish to talk about how much better heathenism is for Europeans then Christianity.

I would disagree with your comment that our way of thinking is anything like most Fundamenstalist Protestant Christians because unlike us Heathens, they are blinded by the lies the Christian "religion" has pushed onto them. Unless they are from middle eastern background Christianity is not a part of their culture or heritige at all.

No, no one ever said it was out place to tell them what religion they should practice but of course we all have the freedom to give our opinion that the ways of your folk are better for you than any alien or foreign ways are. Wouldn't you agree? With Norse/Germanic Heathenism people of that background would be more spiritually fufilled, a person of scandinavian dissent would find more of a connection and identity with Asatru than they would with Chrisitianity or Buddism.

"There is nothing that more clearly defines a Folk's Identity than its natural Religion. The organic religion of any folk will define their Identity and encapsulate the potential of that Folk group more than anything else. This is because it is the sum of that folk, the shared experience and the wisdom of that folk." - Heimgest CG


I do believe that heathenism is a benefit to my life & I am true to it. I honor the gods & my forefathers. I am a member of the Folk. However, I am not able to say that my way is better for anyone else. Of course true heathens don't agree with Christianity, or they wouldn't be heathen, they would be Christian.

Ummmm......yes I believe we are able to say that our ways would be best for our people considering our folkway springs from our very own european folksoul and ancestors outlook on the world. Our beliefs are just as old as our race/folk itself and to say our ancestral ways might not be best for fellow Germanic/Teutonic folk is well, for lack of a better word total BS.


The Christian deity has as much to do with YHWH (the foreign desert god you mentioned) as the Allfather does. Modern Christianity has far more to do with Greco-Roman thought, the other mystery cults of Rome, & European paleopaganism then Judaism. Modern Christianity (by that I mean post-Nicene) is really a mishmash of a lot of elements of a lot of faiths. How did, & do, the gods react to it? I don't know & neither do you. Odin is quite known for doing strange things for the betterment of his people. Who knows?

So you think Odin would agree with his people being raped, murdered and forced into "belief" in another diety? Chrisitanity as a whole is all about mind controll, fear, weakness and submission. It goes against everything ever present in our soul as european peoples. Our ways are about freedom, love, happiness, strength and honour. Again, this is why I feel OUR ways are best for OUR people, just as I feel the ways of the Native Americans are best for the Native Americans or the ways of the Japanese are best for the Japanese and no one else.


I do believe that Germanic culture, heritage, & traditions are worth preserving. Nay they are vital. I do my part to do just that. I take pride in the culture of our people. I am far more concerned with living a life of honor & troth then saying how great it is to be heathen.

I agree that preserving our ways is vital to our very existance as a people and while I am not one for "Preaching" and going door to door forcing photocopy versions of the Havamal or any parts of the Edda's or Saga's down peoples throats but I think it is allso vital to expose our folk to their ancestral ways, not to force them into it but to say "Look, this is what our ancestors believed before they were forced into other belief systems. This is what we believe, this is how we relate to the world and everything around us. If you agree with any of it, please by all means join us and if not, good luck on your current path."

[The Divine Cynic]

Uh...where did anyone say this...it is the christians that say nothing of significance was done until the "advent of christianity". I said that is BS. Everything is nurture and nature, but without the nature as the basis...nurture won't have a fertile ground in which to grow, hence the Germanization of christianity.



Our Folkway is best for Our Folk. Chrisitianity is fine for middle easterners... as a matter of fact it is best suited to them. Anyone can be anything they want it is called freedom, but to say it is right and positive for them is a completely different thing. With this I disagree. Christianity is for the weak and lowly, but their is a better way for Our Folk...Odinism/Asatru/etc... is it. Christianity was the worst thing that could have ever happened to our People.




How exactly? Medieval period isn't any more complex than anything prior to the Medieval period or the Renaissance, etc... Making things so "complex" only serves apathy....people bombarded with so many differing opinions creates a situation to not care about any of it. This is continually used by "historians" so they don't have to take a hardline on anything. Also, it is an OPINION of what the evidence show, not fact. Opinions can be argued all day...never going anywhere, and again only serving up a large dose of apathy. I have heard they are going to rename the "Dark Ages" since it isn't very complimentary to christians...how convenient.

Our Folk did achieve IN SPITE of christianity and in spite of "witch burnings", Inquisition, biblical law (if you can call it that), superstition (killing all the cats because they were "evil"), totalitarianism, backward medicine...yup we sure achieved despite all that a true testament to our Folk's perseverance.



No it is linked to our Folk regardless of some dogma from a last 1500 + years...in fact that is just a drop in the ocean of time. Put it this way...our Folk wouldn't have had "Hospitals, Universities, Bound Books, and Literacy" without Christianity? In fact many of our Cousins (Romans, Greeks, etc...) had these very same things BEFORE christianity......



Ya well I am not in favor of worrying about anyone elses faith they have enough 'bright minds' worrying about it...I am worried about Ours, Our Folk, Our Folkway....Just because there are good people that are christians doesn't mean that christianity is good...it means the people are good regardless of some foreign religion. Imagine how much better they would be if they followed their Folkways........ ;)

aud,

Thank you for your reponse.

As to your first point I adressed in my reponse to Mike.

As to you second point, I partial addressed this in my first reponse. Post-Nicene Christianity has little to do with Middle Eastern thought & far more to do with European thought. Our Faith is best for our Folk. Our Folk are those who practice the faith, not everyone of European descent is a member of the Folk. Being part of the folk is more then bloodline, it is being part of a culture. Individuals of other faiths are not part of the folk.

Hardlines in history are difficult because all periods of history are incredibly complex. Today is complex & issues now are hard to understand at times. Over-simplification of a topic obscures the truth as much as opinions do. I never said that the Medieval period was any more complex then any other period. I simply said that viewing the early Medieval period as the "Dark Ages" & talking about how bad Christianity made it for Europeans is silly & grossly over-simplifies the facts of the period. As a Historian, let me tell you we haven't called the Dark Ages in a while because it is just silly to think Europe went to crap as soon as Rome fell. Christianity was not seen as the cause of the Dark Ages, the fall of Rome was.

Christianity is for the weak & lowly. Hmmmmm so about half the world is weak & lowly. Charlamagne was weak & lowly. Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, & the majority of the Founding Fathers were weak & lowly. Shall I go on? Christianity is a religion, it is neither totality good or bad. It can inspire or it can lead to horrible actions, like all faiths. Saying Christianity is for the weak & lowly is just religious bigotry really.

Now as to backwards medicine, superstition, etc, so let me get this straight all this just popped up due to Christianity? Sorry it was arround before it. Pagan Europe was no paradise. As for the Inquition, many a German was on the torturing end of things & the Jews & Muslim suffered far more under it then our forefathers & mothers ever did.

Modern universities & hospitals can be traced more concretely to the Medieval Catholic Church. They're pagan institutions you refer to bear little resemblance to the modern ideas. Do the research. Oh & bound books definitely weren't around before.

Following the folkways doesn't neccesarily equate better moral conduct. The folkways are & always have been open to intrepetation. Raping captives was considered fine among some Germanic tribes, as was human sacrifice. Invading other nations & slaughtering them & stealing their goods was fine too. Heathen ways are sometimes immoral.

See I guess I look at it like this. The ways of my folk are best for me & my house. I don't care about my neighbor's faith as long as it doesn't effect me. I have seen Christianity have good effect on people & bad as well. It is not my faith & never will be. I am not qualified to say what is best for anyone but me when it comes to religion.

[Katia]

And I dont think you need to be telling Katia that our Lore and Myths are not meant to be taken in the literal sense

Don't worry Hved, I didn't lose any sleep over it. :D . Some debates just don't provide any kind of spiritual or historical advancement, so I'm just gonna let this one go unreplied and not feel bad about that. ;)

[The Divine Cynic]

If any offense was taken by anyone due to my comments, I offer my sincerest apologies. It again was not my intent. I was not trying to imply anyone was less knowledgable about the lore then I. I was meerly offering reponse to an interesting discussion.

Katia,
You bring up a very valid point. How useful is this discussion? After all, we all seek the same goals, a strong & vibrantly growing heathen community. We serve the same deities & honor the same virtues. In the end analysis much of this debate is academic. I think we all agree that freedom of religion is universal human right & we all want more individuals of European descent to join the Faith. We all respect an individual's right to make their own choices on the subject. That seems more important then the particular points of the debate really.

Hvedrungr,

One point I did want to respond to in your post is the Christianization of the record of the Lore. I think this is a very serious issue & a difficult one to sort out as well. However, I do believe we are making progress & definitely stand on the shoulders of giants. Another issue that troubles me is the introduction of pet theories.

[pinlighter]

As to you second point, I partial addressed this in my first reponse. Post-Nicene Christianity has little to do with Middle Eastern thought & far more to do with European thought.


I agree - the jewish beliefs that are the root of Christianity changed enormously as it moved North from the Eastern Mediterranean into areas inhabited by people with a completely different Evolutionary Psychology.
http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol2no2/km-unique.html

Unfortunately many of these changes were quite disastrous for the meme's new carriers, who were prone to interpreting the universe in terms of objective truth and falsehood, and absolute, abstract, principles, rather than by tribal affiliation.


God ceased to be merely "our tribe's god" - which was all he had ever been for the jews - and became the omnipotent ruler of the universe.

Since sin was an offence against god, sin ceased to be a comparatively minor offence against the tribe and became an existential and unredeemable flaw in the nature of things, requiring infinite guilt and an infinite sacrifice to redeem it.

This orientation to reality has crippled our race since that time, and, yes, it comes from Christianity.

.

[pinlighter]

PS. "The Divine Cynic" - smashing handle.

[Mike_76]

Secondly, Christianity is most likely a poison for everyone like us. But not every person of Germanic descent is like us. People are individuals & have to be taken as such or we start down a very slippery slope that leads to prejudice & racism. I am a former Christian myself. I understand you anger with that faith. I have been there. However, I can't say what faith is better for others, I am not them. It is not my place to say. I can work to show an example & if others come seeking then help them any way I can.

Greetings again, the Divine Cynic. (A fellow Hoosier, eh? :)) I'm going to reply to just this portion of your previous post, thanks again for replying. I really want to clarify in my own mind, my beliefs. This might be pretty boring to anyone else BUT myself, but that's for whoever is reading this to decide.

First I have to back up a few steps. Much of what comes next is my belief system, and part of it or most of it was in place before I became aware that I was a heathen. I believe, as human beings, that we are part of nature, no different in that respect than birds, trees, a grizzly bear, or anything else. I believe we are part of the animal world and part of what people refer to as "nature" or "reality" or "the physical world." Like any other living thing on this planet I can't exist without the bounty of mother earth below me and father sky above me.
(I know, that we as human beings can create artificial environments to go into outer space. etc, but for what I'm talking about, that is not important.)

I know that they are people who believe that human beings are not part of nature, but something separate, but with those people, I disagree on this point.

Most of us agree, I think it is safe to say, that things are grouped by animal, mineral and vegetable. under the subcategory of animals, you have a category mammals, and under the category of mammals, there is another category we refer as "human beings," us. I'm sure anyone reading this understands what I mean.

I believe that as Human beings, we have certain commonalities, the obvious of course, two eyes, we walk upright, "we all bleed red" is true. We probably have some of the same or most of the same basic needs, food, shelter, love, acceptance, achievement, status, power and so forth. "Universal truths"

However, I believe that in the category "human beings" there are subcategories, which are generally referred to as "race." The races are referred to as European, African, Asian, Spanish and so on, however you want to group them. This could be further divided into subcategories, such as under the heading or "European" or "white," there are the anglo-saxon, the Teutonic, the Scandinavian, etc, but that's not necessary for the point I am trying to make. different species under the heading "human being" Nothing new here.

However, I don't believe that color or race is only skin deep. I believe that that there are differences between the races that go all the way into the root of the person. I believe a persons emotional, cognitive, perhaps even spiritual makeup is going to be hardwired into them, if not absolutely, at least significantly. Different strengths, different weaknesses, etc. An Asian is going to be most like another Asian, a African is going to be most like another African, and so on.

I disagree with those who think or say that the differences are only skin deep.

I want to add that that I am generalizing, in the same sense I would say "men are taller than women," knowing that some women are taller than some men and so on, but as a rule of thumb I believe the generalization is true.

I further believe, that "birds of a feather flock together" and that people naturally group according to race. and feel most comfortable with those of their own kind.

Based on the my belief system, I do feel, that because of basic differences noted above that it's possible and even beneficial to generalize, as observable predictability can come into play. I believe black people run a higher risk of high blood pressure, and KNOWING this upfront, a black person or black people, could adapt a certain diet and lifestyle that would minimize the risk of problems associated with their particular racial subgroup.

Having said all this, I do believe that certain religious or spiritual practices and even such things as dietary and lifestyle issues are better suited to different subgroups than others.

Asatru is, I believe, a religion or religious system designed FOR people of European decent, because it "fits" us the best. I don't think it would be the right one for, let's say, an Asian man, anymore that adopting, lets say, the Aztec religion would be right for me.

Also because of my beliefs, I just don't believe that Xtianity is the right religion for "people like me" or probably even people of Asian, African, or Hispanic origin either, because it is foreign to our basic structure.

I've been considered racist for holding my beliefs and that's fine although irritating as racist is considered a derogatory term. I don't see how my view can be considered hateful though.

Again, thanks for your input.

[Liffrea]

Humans are a part of nature. The thing that for me seperates humans from other species is our superior intellect, and more important our conscience. How we treat the "natural world" very much depends on our upbringing. Indeed some would argue that plowing a major highway through the middle of the Amazon is just as natural as two parrots copulatiing, after all we are part of the natural world.

Heathenism teaches a respect for nature, not just from reverance, but also from practicality. What sane person would take more from the land than the land could support, and thus face starvation the next year? Christianity by contrast teaches that the earth is ours to exploit and do with as we please, we are all seeing the consequences now. Christianity had, in my view, little to do with progress for mankind. Remember that it was the Arabs who preserved most of the scientific knowledge of the ancient Greeks. Human technology did not begin to gather pace until the renaissance, and the re-learning of the knowledge of the Greeks. Christianity, for me, has always been a religion of control and one that works against, rather than with nature. We can see in history how quick the church was to try and surpress new knowledege and the learning of the ancients.

The thing that peeves me the most is why our ancestors shunned the gods and turned to a Jewish desert religion. I just don't understand that at all. Still we are lucky to live in an age where the oppressive walls of Christianity are gone, and we can once again learn the faith of our ancestors. The age of Christianity in Europe, I believe. is over. People will begin to look for other beliefs, who are they going to turn to Islam? Not likely, unless the Islamists manage to take over.... It is for us to teach people about the true faith of their people. Indeed I think the appeal of Odinism will grow. People will become more racially aware in time, this is inevitable, they will seek to connect with their heritage. Odinism does not control, there is no dogma. It offers a natural way of life, a source of strength and community. I honestly believe that our time is at hand. I think we waste to much time comparing ourselves to Christians, I speak as one who does so to often!, we should concentrate on recovering as much of our ancient lore as we can and learn the knowldge that the gods gave us.

[Mike_76]

Hey Liffrea..it's been a real blessing for me also :-)

Just wanted to add...I do believe that we are part of the animal kingdom, but can't quite think of myself as an animal really no matter how hard I try....for whatever reason...we can expand the parameters of our envirionment....take various things from our envirionment and combine them creatively in a god/goddess-like fashion to make new things...I'm thinking out loud...

[Liffrea]

I think you might be referring to our collective responsibility? We are the most intelligent animal on earth, as a result it is our duty to protect the earth. Not just for the other species, but for future generations of our people.

[aud_friggsdottir]

Hail!


aud,

Thank you for your reponse.

As to your first point I adressed in my reponse to Mike.

As to you second point, I partial addressed this in my first reponse. Post-Nicene Christianity has little to do with Middle Eastern thought & far more to do with European thought. Our Faith is best for our Folk. Our Folk are those who practice the faith, not everyone of European descent is a member of the Folk. Being part of the folk is more then bloodline, it is being part of a culture. Individuals of other faiths are not part of the folk.

I agree with your first comment, but Christianity is still rooted in middle eastern thought...there is no way around that. But yes it bent to European culture. I think I said that with the "Germanization of Christianity"....anything that is life affirming and positive came from being European (for lack of a better word). As to the second part...I am not a universalist Folkish Odinist (LOL) I think that the Germanic ways are for Germanics, Slavic ways for Slavics, etc... It may not only be bloodline, but the foundation has to be "in the blood". So we probably are speaking the same language...so to speak. I actually narrowly define "Folk", but all of *our* "race" have the foundation to become Folk. Make sense?..LOL


Hardlines in history are difficult because all periods of history are incredibly complex. Today is complex & issues now are hard to understand at times. Over-simplification of a topic obscures the truth as much as opinions do. I never said that the Medieval period was any more complex then any other period. I simply said that viewing the early Medieval period as the "Dark Ages" & talking about how bad Christianity made it for Europeans is silly & grossly over-simplifies the facts of the period. As a Historian, let me tell you we haven't called the Dark Ages in a while because it is just silly to think Europe went to crap as soon as Rome fell. Christianity was not seen as the cause of the Dark Ages, the fall of Rome was.

Ok... I see...well Christianity was a LARGE contributing factor, but Europe was ripe for totalitarianism in any form (my opinion). I hope you see calling peoples opinions silly can cause irritation...I was more irritated that someone with a historical background (Appealing to authority is a gross fallacy) was using derogatory language such as this. I am well aware with the "cause" of the Dark Ages (my children have been in the thick of the Medieval Era for months now, which I teach)...but it also isn't a huge coincedence that the spread of christianity followed and left in its wake many of our heroes and martyrs we celebrate in Blotar. What bothers me about "accepted truths" is that they usually are tied to honesty but to grant dollars. Not remotely saying this is your motivation or attaching it to you, just when I hear such comments, it smacks of regurgitating some "generally accepted truth".




Christianity is for the weak & lowly. Hmmmmm so about half the world is weak & lowly. Charlamagne was weak & lowly. Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, & the majority of the Founding Fathers were weak & lowly. Shall I go on? Christianity is a religion, it is neither totality good or bad. It can inspire or it can lead to horrible actions, like all faiths. Saying Christianity is for the weak & lowly is just religious bigotry really.

Ok...does this make it better...GENERALLY.... Just for the record:

Charlamagne was a bastard. Martin Luther King...do we really need to go there...he was a fine example of a christian? Majority of our founding fathers were "deists" which is almost like atheists. Hence the usage of "creator" as opposed to "God". Also, there will always those that will break the bounds of current strictures to rise above...that goes for all people...AND this was the entire point of my post...there is way to much attributed to christianity when it was in fact the people they were regardless of religious affiliation.


Now as to backwards medicine, superstition, etc, so let me get this straight all this just popped up due to Christianity? Sorry it was arround before it. Pagan Europe was no paradise. As for the Inquition, many a German was on the torturing end of things & the Jews & Muslim suffered far more under it then our forefathers & mothers ever did.

Uh...there were many less "taboos" when it came to medicine prior to christianity. Thought regarding health and well being combine sound mind, body and soul. Heathens *weren't killing women because they were using herbs because that was connected to witch craft. Also, surgery and the like weren't wrong because some book said so. Thralls are thralls they will be superstitious and what not, but not because of religion be because they have unaware minds. Once christianity came around all kinds of things that were once no big deal became demonic. Many of the great strides in medicine didn't start happening until around the 1400s (more than 1000 years after christianity made it to Europe. You are absolutely right ancient times were no picnic...

Inquisition...ok since it was worse for jews and muslims never mind? What is your point...it is a good example of christian intolerance.


Modern universities & hospitals can be traced more concretely to the Medieval Catholic Church. They're pagan institutions you refer to bear little resemblance to the modern ideas. Do the research. Oh & bound books definitely weren't around before.

The universities were just that Catholic. Since I look at it from a Heathen point of view...that isn't a great achievement. These universities were created to continue study of already blooming thought that was happening before christianity. Many of the scholars were building on already known "truths", but were restricted in keeping things strictly according to biblical law. Imagine where our Folk would be without being confined to what the power structure of the time deamed as absolute truth. "Here is an ancient philosophy expand on it, but don't dare question it outside the bible."

By your reasoning...vaccines saved us from deadly diseases, but wait those diseases were already on their way out...(not wanting to argue about vaccines which I am against, but it is a common argument used by pharmaceutical companies who create vaccines for profit!)

I have researched it. I just don't buy into how much "christianity saved Europe".


Following the folkways doesn't neccesarily equate better moral conduct. The folkways are & always have been open to intrepetation. Raping captives was considered fine among some Germanic tribes, as was human sacrifice. Invading other nations & slaughtering them & stealing their goods was fine too. Heathen ways are sometimes immoral.

This is highly overstated...and wasn't some common practice, just as taking foreign wives which people seem to use as some excuse to be universalist...Stuff happens like this now. There are sick people everywhere...I am not sure what your point is.


See I guess I look at it like this. The ways of my folk are best for me & my house. I don't care about my neighbor's faith as long as it doesn't effect me. I have seen Christianity have good effect on people & bad as well. It is not my faith & never will be. I am not qualified to say what is best for anyone but me when it comes to religion.

This is a nice cop out...by this you never have to go outside your little bubble and actually interact with anyone. Now maybe you are highly introverted which maybe this is just how you function...great...public interaction isn't for everyone. I do care about my folk (little f), because someday they may become Folk (big F). So I do always present my Folk, Faith and Family in every venue and in everything I do. I am going to take a stand with my People and say that *this* is the best way for my folk. If they then choose to ignore their folkways...fine, but it won't be because they had no idea about them because I only kept to myself. I will never say that christianity is good for any of our people. Just because it pulls some poor person out of the mud doesn't mean it uplifts them...just keeping someone's head above water doesn't mean you saved them from drowning...it is simply sustaining their life for a while. Biological Heathenism (grasping for a "label") would actually uplift a person and put them on the path towards true enlightenment.

Now my apologies to hyjacking this thread. I just disagree with your opinions and can live a long happy life with that, as I am sure you can too. Many diverse opinions make for colorful conversation on a bulletin board. :)

[The Divine Cynic]

I agree that we all have things we need to work on in our faith, one of the biggest problems we do face is the Chrisitanization of our lore. Genetic pride IS a good thing, as long as it does not follow any "Supremacy" ways of thinking. Every Folk or Race of people should be proud of their background, their own unique culture and ancestral ways because it is who they are. I agree with acknowledging the errors out folk have made in the past (I would not call them failures though) and striving to better ourselfs as a collective group. Our folkway has always been one based on evolution, growing and becoming a better generation than the last.



Our "Gods" created US, the Germanic/Teutonic peoples and no one else. Our Gods & Goddesses, the lore and the creation myths are the ways our ancestors related to the creating forces in nature.

And I dont think you need to be telling Katia that our Lore and Myths are not meant to be taken in the literal sense, afterall she IS now in charge of the Norroena Society (See my signature for the link). Our lore and myths are ours and how our folk and eldest ancestors viewed the world and creation. With that comes the ideals of ancestry, blood, genetics and the folkish view come into place. Just as our Germanic/Teutonic folk had their own ways of viewing the world so do every other group of people. That is why we believe the ways of our ancestors (Odinism, Asatru, Irminen, Ford Sed ect ect) are the best ways for OUR people. Its more than just "Religion" or "Culture", its a whole system and way of being. It is how one views the world and everything around them.



I would disagree with your comment that our way of thinking is anything like most Fundamenstalist Protestant Christians because unlike us Heathens, they are blinded by the lies the Christian "religion" has pushed onto them. Unless they are from middle eastern background Christianity is not a part of their culture or heritige at all.

No, no one ever said it was out place to tell them what religion they should practice but of course we all have the freedom to give our opinion that the ways of your folk are better for you than any alien or foreign ways are. Wouldn't you agree? With Norse/Germanic Heathenism people of that background would be more spiritually fufilled, a person of scandinavian dissent would find more of a connection and identity with Asatru than they would with Chrisitianity or Buddism.

"There is nothing that more clearly defines a Folk's Identity than its natural Religion. The organic religion of any folk will define their Identity and encapsulate the potential of that Folk group more than anything else. This is because it is the sum of that folk, the shared experience and the wisdom of that folk." - Heimgest CG



Ummmm......yes I believe we are able to say that our ways would be best for our people considering our folkway springs from our very own european folksoul and ancestors outlook on the world. Our beliefs are just as old as our race/folk itself and to say our ancestral ways might not be best for fellow Germanic/Teutonic folk is well, for lack of a better word total BS.



So you think Odin would agree with his people being raped, murdered and forced into "belief" in another diety? Chrisitanity as a whole is all about mind controll, fear, weakness and submission. It goes against everything ever present in our soul as european peoples. Our ways are about freedom, love, happiness, strength and honour. Again, this is why I feel OUR ways are best for OUR people, just as I feel the ways of the Native Americans are best for the Native Americans or the ways of the Japanese are best for the Japanese and no one else.



I agree that preserving our ways is vital to our very existance as a people and while I am not one for "Preaching" and going door to door forcing photocopy versions of the Havamal or any parts of the Edda's or Saga's down peoples throats but I think it is allso vital to expose our folk to their ancestral ways, not to force them into it but to say "Look, this is what our ancestors believed before they were forced into other belief systems. This is what we believe, this is how we relate to the world and everything around us. If you agree with any of it, please by all means join us and if not, good luck on your current path."

I don’t really see anything in your first point that I particularly disagree with.

The problem with the idea that the gods created the Germanic people is that we weren’t always Germanic, we were Indo-Europeans. Our species not only evolved, so did our culture. Germanic culture has no special genesis. Our faith has evolved as well. Our myths weren’t always exactly the same. The Germanic view of the world wasn’t always the same. As to our eldest ancestors, their view is not the same as the Germanic one. They weren’t Germanic. Asatru/Odinism does color how we view the world, but so does many other factors.

Saying that our way is the best way (even if limiting to just Germanic people), is really saying the same thing that Christians & Muslim do: I know what is best for you. Really the only counters to the statement you offer are:
A)This view is more limited (i.e. it only applies to Germanic ethnic groups)
B)It is right
These are distinctions without a real difference. People are individuals ultimately & bloodline only goes so far. Also, there are several other issues involved as well. How does even begin to define better? How much Germanic blood does one need to have? (For instance would a black man with trace amounts of Germanic blood qualify?) Also, in the case of mix-ancestry individuals, which ancestral faith takes precedence?

I have said over & over again, Germanic heathenry is best for me & my house.

As to the comments about Katia, as I said in a previous post I apologize for any offense taken. It was not my intent.

The problem with saying that our beliefs are as old as the folk is that it is simply untrue. Germanic heathenry developed & evolved. We were, again, Indo-Europeans first & if we wished to truly follow the religion of our eldest ancestors we would be practicing a far different faith. Even within heathenism itself, there is good evidence of evolution. This one of the reasons it is silly to say that it is the best because it has changed & continues to do so. We haven’t gotten it perfect just yet.

I cannot say what Odin would agree to, but I know he has supported & caused events that seem immoral on the surface. Odin apparently had no problem with rape, as some Germanic tribes had no problem. Slaves were expected to participate in Norse culture & religion & the Norse took many foreign slaves. I will say this I do not believe Odin would not have allowed the conversion to take place if it did not serve a purpose. I refuse to believe the Allfather failed or lacked the power to stop it.

I do agree that sharing Odinism properly is a great thing. It is usually a part of the getting to know you phase of most of my friendships. I do not hide it in anyway. I have seen several individuals take an interest & come to the folkways through my efforts & the efforts of others.

[The Divine Cynic]

Heilsa aud,

Firstly before I begin, just because we disagree doesn’t change the fact we are Folk & part of a very large & extended family. I haven’t taken offense to any comment made here really. As a European history prof, I run into all sorts of spirited debates.

There are two general clarifying points I wanted to make here.

I am folkish, but of an apparently differing bent then some. I do believe that Germanic heathenism is primarily for Germanic people; however I do not believe that it is for all Germanic people. Some are called to it & others not. I do think the folkways can have a tremendously positive effect on people; however, people are individuals first & who knows. I have some known strong heathens that were real jerks.

I think it is dangerous to assume that our ways are necessarily the best way out there for anyone but ourselves.

Secondly, as to European history, Christianity had both positive & negative effects on Europe as a whole. We can go through a list of atrocities committed on both sides. Also, one big issue is the idea that there ever was a united Christianity in Europe or that there ever was a united paleopagan tradition as well. Some Christian kings were good, some were bad. Again it comes down to the fact that people are individuals & the world has always been a very complex place. Sweeping statements & judgments really do us little good.

[The Divine Cynic]

Hail!



I agree with your first comment, but Christianity is still rooted in middle eastern thought...there is no way around that. But yes it bent to European culture. I think I said that with the "Germanization of Christianity"....anything that is life affirming and positive came from being European (for lack of a better word). As to the second part...I am not a universalist Folkish Odinist (LOL) I think that the Germanic ways are for Germanics, Slavic ways for Slavics, etc... It may not only be bloodline, but the foundation has to be "in the blood". So we probably are speaking the same language...so to speak. I actually narrowly define "Folk", but all of *our* "race" have the foundation to become Folk. Make sense?..LOL



Ok... I see...well Christianity was a LARGE contributing factor, but Europe was ripe for totalitarianism in any form (my opinion). I hope you see calling peoples opinions silly can cause irritation...I was more irritated that someone with a historical background (Appealing to authority is a gross fallacy) was using derogatory language such as this. I am well aware with the "cause" of the Dark Ages (my children have been in the thick of the Medieval Era for months now, which I teach)...but it also isn't a huge coincedence that the spread of christianity followed and left in its wake many of our heroes and martyrs we celebrate in Blotar. What bothers me about "accepted truths" is that they usually are tied to honesty but to grant dollars. Not remotely saying this is your motivation or attaching it to you, just when I hear such comments, it smacks of regurgitating some "generally accepted truth".





Ok...does this make it better...GENERALLY.... Just for the record:

Charlamagne was a bastard. Martin Luther King...do we really need to go there...he was a fine example of a christian? Majority of our founding fathers were "deists" which is almost like atheists. Hence the usage of "creator" as opposed to "God". Also, there will always those that will break the bounds of current strictures to rise above...that goes for all people...AND this was the entire point of my post...there is way to much attributed to christianity when it was in fact the people they were regardless of religious affiliation.



Uh...there were many less "taboos" when it came to medicine prior to christianity. Thought regarding health and well being combine sound mind, body and soul. Heathens were killing women because they were using herbs because that was connected to witch craft. Also, surgery and the like weren't wrong because some book said so. Thralls are thralls they will be superstitious and what not, but not because of religion be because they have unaware minds. Once christianity came around all kinds of things that were once no big deal became demonic. Many of the great strides in medicine didn't start happening until around the 1400s (more than 1000 years after christianity made it to Europe. You are absolutely right ancient times were no picnic...

Inquisition...ok since it was worse for jews and muslims never mind? What is your point...it is a good example of christian intolerance.



The universities were just that Catholic. Since I look at it from a Heathen point of view...that isn't a great achievement. These universities were created to continue study of already blooming thought that was happening before christianity. Many of the scholars were building on already known "truths", but were restricted in keeping things strictly according to biblical law. Imagine where our Folk would be without being confined to what the power structure of the time deamed as absolute truth. "Here is an ancient philosophy expand on it, but don't dare question it outside the bible."

By your reasoning...vaccines saved us from deadly diseases, but wait those diseases were already on their way out...(not wanting to argue about vaccines which I am against, but it is a common argument used by pharmaceutical companies who create vaccines for profit!)

I have researched it. I just don't buy into how much "christianity saved Europe".



This is highly overstated...and wasn't some common practice, just as taking foreign wives which people seem to use as some excuse to be universalist...Stuff happens like this now. There are sick people everywhere...I am not sure what your point is.



This is a nice cop out...by this you never have to go outside your little bubble and actually interact with anyone. Now maybe you are highly introverted which maybe this is just how you function...great...public interaction isn't for everyone. I do care about my folk (little f), because someday they may become Folk (big F). So I do always present my Folk, Faith and Family in every venue and in everything I do. I am going to take a stand with my People and say that *this* is the best way for my folk. If they then choose to ignore their folkways...fine, but it won't be because they had no idea about them because I only kept to myself. I will never say that christianity is good for any of our people. Just because it pulls some poor person out of the mud doesn't mean it uplifts them...just keeping someone's head above water doesn't mean you saved them from drowning...it is simply sustaining their life for a while. Biological Heathenism (grasping for a "label") would actually uplift a person and put them on the path towards true enlightenment.

Now my apologies to hyjacking this thread. I just disagree with your opinions and can live a long happy life with that, as I am sure you can too. Many diverse opinions make for colorful conversation on a bulletin board. :)

Heilsa aud,

Now on to specific points…..

Post-Nicene Christianity actually bears little resemblance to Semitic/Near Eastern thought. Pauline Christianity really owes far more to Plato & Roman Mystery cults then Judaism. Also, the Judaism of the First Century had a lot of influence from the Hellenization under the successors of Alexander the Great. The Christ myth bears far more resembles to the Dionysus cycle then to the conquering Messiah images of Hebraic literature.

As I said in my last post, I don’t agree that all of our ethnicity has the ability to become Folk. There is another quality that I have seen. I can only call it the calling of the gods. I have also seen those "not called" live great lives.

Christianity wasn’t even close to the cause of the Dark Ages really. It didn’t have enough power. Secondly, as to the whole weakening idea that has been put forth, the continual existence & general advancement of the Eastern Empire rules that one out. The Dark Ages had more to do with the breakdown of the existing Roman structures. After all the major conversion of our people took place after what is generally considered the Dark Ages. Charlemagne was fighting Saxon pagans & his reign was after the Dark Ages by most accounts. All in all, as I said earlier Christianity had good & bad effects on Europe.

As to your second point, about grant dollars & all that, I agree whole heartedly. One of the reasons I got into history is to combat revisionism.

Christianity doesn’t make a person better or worse, but it can. Any religious affiliation can. My point is that Christianity is neither better nor worse & that such value statements are really impossible. It is beyond our abilities as limited human beings to make such statements. I am not living my non-heathen friend’s life. I cannot know what faith would be best for him.

One little note. There was really only one deist among the Founding Fathers, Jefferson. Washington required his troops take communion. Franklin might have been one, but he said that a deist was a Christian who did belong to a church. So, who knows? Go & read the primary sources & historical texts written before 1920 or so & it is fairly self-evident. The idea that the Founding Fathers were primarily deist really is revisionist history, usually totted by atheist or ant-religionists. One minor correction: Payne was a deist as well, but his place among the Founding Fathers is very debatable.

I agree that often the greatness of an individual is wrongly attributed to his faith, but I think an individual’s faith can contribute to his greatness. By the same token I think the evil of an individual is often wrongly attributed to their faith.

All in all, I think we disagree less in practice & more in theory.

[The Divine Cynic]

I agree - the jewish beliefs that are the root of Christianity changed enormously as it moved North from the Eastern Mediterranean into areas inhabited by people with a completely different Evolutionary Psychology.
http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol2no2/km-unique.html

Unfortunately many of these changes were quite disastrous for the meme's new carriers, who were prone to interpreting the universe in terms of objective truth and falsehood, and absolute, abstract, principles, rather than by tribal affiliation.


God ceased to be merely "our tribe's god" - which was all he had ever been for the jews - and became the omnipotent ruler of the universe.

Since sin was an offence against god, sin ceased to be a comparatively minor offence against the tribe and became an existential and unredeemable flaw in the nature of things, requiring infinite guilt and an infinite sacrifice to redeem it.

This orientation to reality has crippled our race since that time, and, yes, it comes from Christianity.

.

Heilsa pinlighter,

The henotheistic model for the Hebraic faith is a hotly debated one, but I tend to agree with it. However by the time of the writing of Isaiah, it had vanished & been replaced with the idea that all foreign gods were demons. That is clear from the Hebraic prophetic literature.

I do not believe that anything has crippled our people. We have always done great things & continue to so.

[The Divine Cynic]

PS. "The Divine Cynic" - smashing handle.

Thanks :D

[The Divine Cynic]

Greetings again, the Divine Cynic. (A fellow Hoosier, eh? :)) I'm going to reply to just this portion of your previous post, thanks again for replying. I really want to clarify in my own mind, my beliefs. This might be pretty boring to anyone else BUT myself, but that's for whoever is reading this to decide.

First I have to back up a few steps. Much of what comes next is my belief system, and part of it or most of it was in place before I became aware that I was a heathen. I believe, as human beings, that we are part of nature, no different in that respect than birds, trees, a grizzly bear, or anything else. I believe we are part of the animal world and part of what people refer to as "nature" or "reality" or "the physical world." Like any other living thing on this planet I can't exist without the bounty of mother earth below me and father sky above me.
(I know, that we as human beings can create artificial environments to go into outer space. etc, but for what I'm talking about, that is not important.)

I know that they are people who believe that human beings are not part of nature, but something separate, but with those people, I disagree on this point.

Most of us agree, I think it is safe to say, that things are grouped by animal, mineral and vegetable. under the subcategory of animals, you have a category mammals, and under the category of mammals, there is another category we refer as "human beings," us. I'm sure anyone reading this understands what I mean.

I believe that as Human beings, we have certain commonalities, the obvious of course, two eyes, we walk upright, "we all bleed red" is true. We probably have some of the same or most of the same basic needs, food, shelter, love, acceptance, achievement, status, power and so forth. "Universal truths"

However, I believe that in the category "human beings" there are subcategories, which are generally referred to as "race." The races are referred to as European, African, Asian, Spanish and so on, however you want to group them. This could be further divided into subcategories, such as under the heading or "European" or "white," there are the anglo-saxon, the Teutonic, the Scandinavian, etc, but that's not necessary for the point I am trying to make. different species under the heading "human being" Nothing new here.

However, I don't believe that color or race is only skin deep. I believe that that there are differences between the races that go all the way into the root of the person. I believe a persons emotional, cognitive, perhaps even spiritual makeup is going to be hardwired into them, if not absolutely, at least significantly. Different strengths, different weaknesses, etc. An Asian is going to be most like another Asian, a African is going to be most like another African, and so on.

I disagree with those who think or say that the differences are only skin deep.

I want to add that that I am generalizing, in the same sense I would say "men are taller than women," knowing that some women are taller than some men and so on, but as a rule of thumb I believe the generalization is true.

I further believe, that "birds of a feather flock together" and that people naturally group according to race. and feel most comfortable with those of their own kind.

Based on the my belief system, I do feel, that because of basic differences noted above that it's possible and even beneficial to generalize, as observable predictability can come into play. I believe black people run a higher risk of high blood pressure, and KNOWING this upfront, a black person or black people, could adapt a certain diet and lifestyle that would minimize the risk of problems associated with their particular racial subgroup.

Having said all this, I do believe that certain religious or spiritual practices and even such things as dietary and lifestyle issues are better suited to different subgroups than others.

Asatru is, I believe, a religion or religious system designed FOR people of European decent, because it "fits" us the best. I don't think it would be the right one for, let's say, an Asian man, anymore that adopting, lets say, the Aztec religion would be right for me.

Also because of my beliefs, I just don't believe that Xtianity is the right religion for "people like me" or probably even people of Asian, African, or Hispanic origin either, because it is foreign to our basic structure.

I've been considered racist for holding my beliefs and that's fine although irritating as racist is considered a derogatory term. I don't see how my view can be considered hateful though.

Again, thanks for your input.

Heilsa mike,

Good to talk to you again.

I do agree that ethnicity is far more then just skin deep. However, I do think that as individuals we can transcend it, for good or ill. I also think it is obvious that far then genetics produce the person. Our environment has an equal effect.

I think many here mistook what I was trying to say a bit. I am not a Universalist. I however do not believe that blood is enough. There is a whole other aspect to being folk. I simply say that I cannot speak for what is best for another. I do not know. Christianity may be it.

LOL I most likely caused the miscommunication.

Again thanks for your reply.

[Mike_76]

I do agree that ethnicity is far more then just skin deep. However, I do think that as individuals we can transcend it, for good or ill. I also think it is obvious that far then genetics produce the person. Our environment has an equal effect.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I agree that envirionment and other things play a part but I believe genetics, plays a larger part. I already tried to transcend my ethnicity, but finally gave up. In the word of Popeye, "I yam who I yam." LOL. Or even, "A man has got to know his limitations" as quoted by Clint Eastwood.

I think you're a good man, DC, (afterall, you're a Hoosier :)) but I think you're just a little off course. I believe if we don't come together as a people, exclusively, we are going to ceast to exist as a people. period. I hope you re-think your position.

[Mike_76]

I think you might be referring to our collective responsibility? We are the most intelligent animal on earth, as a result it is our duty to protect the earth. Not just for the other species, but for future generations of our people.

Hail Liffrea, sorry for the delay. I was trying to define the difference between a human being, and other species, and saying we can take things from nature and make new things. We have taken things like analog, natural sound waves in nature as a model and created digital, radio waves. We've blended together things to make sailing ships, automobiles, things like that.

[Liffrea]

Hail Liffrea, sorry for the delay. I was trying to define the difference between a human being, and other species, and saying we can take things from nature and make new things. We have taken things like analog, natural sound waves in nature as a model and created digital, radio waves. We've blended together things to make sailing ships, automobiles, things like that.

No worries chief. :)

You make interesting points. One way I look at it is how do you define technology as being un-natural? Consider that humans are part of nature, so anything we create is surely natural, as it is an extension of our mind.

[æinvargR]

When you remove something out of its natural context it's no longer natural. So for example, oil that is on the surface of water isn't natural, etc.

[Liffrea]

When you remove something out of its natural context it's no longer natural. So for example, oil that is on the surface of water isn't natural, etc.

True, but if a man creates a radio how is that any less natural than a beaver creating dam?

[aud_friggsdottir]

Hail!

I don't have a lot of time...unfortunately....to continually go back and forth and really haven't read all your points with others...so if you feel like you are repeating yourself...sorry...I just am cramped for time (as is evident by my numerous typos!)....but nonetheless, I do want to make a couple of comments....


Heilsa aud,

Now on to specific points…..

Post-Nicene Christianity actually bears little resemblance to Semitic/Near Eastern thought. Pauline Christianity really owes far more to Plato & Roman Mystery cults then Judaism. Also, the Judaism of the First Century had a lot of influence from the Hellenization under the successors of Alexander the Great. The Christ myth bears far more resembles to the Dionysus cycle then to the conquering Messiah images of Hebraic literature.

Again...I have already said this...BUT Paul (Saul) was Jewish, he was the "spreader" of the first Christianity, so his world view, upbringing, and genetic disposition does have bearing on what he preaches.


As I said in my last post, I don’t agree that all of our ethnicity has the ability to become Folk. There is another quality that I have seen. I can only call it the calling of the gods. I have also seen those "not called" live great lives.

I think they have to opportunity...whether they seize it or not is another situation completely. Great is a matter of opinion.


Christianity wasn’t even close to the cause of the Dark Ages really. It didn’t have enough power. Secondly, as to the whole weakening idea that has been put forth, the continual existence & general advancement of the Eastern Empire rules that one out. The Dark Ages had more to do with the breakdown of the existing Roman structures. After all the major conversion of our people took place after what is generally considered the Dark Ages. Charlemagne was fighting Saxon pagans & his reign was after the Dark Ages by most accounts. All in all, as I said earlier Christianity had good & bad effects on Europe.

I again say that Christianity is the worst thing that happened to our Folk. And I disagree with your summation of the causes and effects of the early Medieval Era. Charlemagnes rule wasn't part of the "Dark Ages", are you trying to say it was part of the Renaissance? Just ask 4500 Saxons! Again I think it is a POV thing... Christianity was one (emphasis on one) of the things that broke down "existing Roman structures". Trust me I am aware of Roman decline and the many causes, but to say somehow that christianity saved anything...I just disagree...I think the enduring nature of our Folk did that...not a set of dogmatic doctrines from a foreign root.


As to your second point, about grant dollars & all that, I agree whole heartedly. One of the reasons I got into history is to combat revisionism.

Huh? Combat revisionism? I must ask what you consider "revisionism" I have more respect for someone that has the nerve to go against "generally accepted truths" because they reject christianty (the atheists and antireligious types) than someone who just parrots the party line because it would cause them to lose their grant money! Revisionism has a place and is sorely needed for much of history...of course christianity saved Europe....because it was christians that were writing the history of Europe! Definitely needs to be revised.


Christianity doesn’t make a person better or worse, but it can. Any religious affiliation can. My point is that Christianity is neither better nor worse & that such value statements are really impossible. It is beyond our abilities as limited human beings to make such statements. I am not living my non-heathen friend’s life. I cannot know what faith would be best for him.

Oh...value statements are completely possible...just not arguable. I can have opinions on wide range of subjects and attach value statements to whatever I like...they are just not right or wrong...they are opinions. In my opinion...I *think* christianity is not the best choice for my "non-heathen" friend...


One little note. There was really only one deist among the Founding Fathers, Jefferson. Washington required his troops take communion. Franklin might have been one, but he said that a deist was a Christian who did belong to a church. So, who knows? Go & read the primary sources & historical texts written before 1920 or so & it is fairly self-evident. The idea that the Founding Fathers were primarily deist really is revisionist history, usually totted by atheist or ant-religionists. One minor correction: Payne was a deist as well, but his place among the Founding Fathers is very debatable.

:rolleyes: The proof is in the pudding...No "Under God" in the original Pledge of Allegiance, No "God" in the Consititution....regardless they had a greater vision and foresight than you or I could imagine...unfortunately....foreign interests have destroyed that. They were great men because they were great men...nothing to do with their christian outlooks. When they pulled from their strength to move forward it was because of their dna, not because they were christians.


I agree that often the greatness of an individual is wrongly attributed to his faith, but I think an individual’s faith can contribute to his greatness. By the same token I think the evil of an individual is often wrongly attributed to their faith.

I think that greatness and the ability to do extrordinary things is woven into someones being, not because of some superficial belief in a set of doctrines. We are Heathens not by choice, but because it is woven into our very being...we are hard wired by our DNA to be Heathens...frankly all folk are. Just because they ignore it, doesn't mean it isn't still there...just means they are in denial. Conversly, people do very bad things for the same reason...it is part of their being....dna is the controller, regardless of how multi-cultis would like to say that Nature is more of a factor...it always comes down to dna....good and bad.


All in all, I think we disagree less in practice & more in theory.

Agreed. I just don't "appeal to authority"....history was written by the victors and recognizing that there has to be some honest revision of "generally accepted truths" both for good and ill. Think about it...how long did the pervasive "vikings are barbarian murders" linger about in the mainstream historical community?

[æinvargR]

True, but if a man creates a radio how is that any less natural than a beaver creating dam?
Maybe a beaver-made dam isn't natural then :p But it's more natural since they don't do much else than move wood from the shore a couple of meters into the water, whereas for a radio you use remove metal from mountains, oil from beneath the earth surface for the plastic, etc.

But really, you can probably say a beaver-made dam isn't natural. The wood that's in it isn't in its natural context.

I looked it up on dictionary.com now:

nat·u·ral
1. Present in or produced by nature
...
6. Not altered, treated, or disguised

[Liffrea]

Arghh play fair, you used a dictionary!! :p

Its a matter of perception then. Anything we can make, even plastic is from nature.

[æinvargR]

But plastic (1) is not produced by nature (except for the oil) and (6) is altered/treated (by man). Though, yeah it is a matter of perception, and that's probably most obvious in the beaver-dam case.

And hey, I used the dictionary after writing what was above! :p

[Mike_76]

Well, my original post was about a thread I read elsewhere. Since then, Someone posted some garbage about Odin being Bisexual, I kid you not.

The other folkish individual responded, and then I responded, calmly and civily I might add, putting forth the opinion that such a thing isn't true, but my reply was deleted by moderation (I was told, probably by a devout christian, in their words, not mine) before it could be posted. I still would need to investigate further to make sure what happened.

I was told the board is full of Christians and persons of Jewish persuasion, so I think it is possible there might be an anti-heathen bias, to be kind.

To make a long story short, I talked to the other folkish individual and invited him here, as he is intellegent and pretty funny also, and is looking for a folkish board. We shall see what happens. That's it for an update on my "fascinating" online adventures :)

[Liffrea]

But plastic (1) is not produced by nature (except for the oil) and (6) is altered/treated (by man). Though, yeah it is a matter of perception, and that's probably most obvious in the beaver-dam case.

Well true you do have to manufacture plastics. Everything on Earth though is made from the same basic elements, or something like that?

[Liffrea]

I was told the board is full of Christians and persons of Jewish persuasion, so I think it is possible there might be an anti-heathen bias, to be kind.

Yes I have that problem on another forum I use. I had one guy call me a d**k head, after I responded about there being no need for insults, I got moderated.

[Sigurd]

I think that

1) it is very unrespectable to post stuff like that about our religion because they should learn more about it before they complain about the views. I myself would not complain about xians would i not know a lot about their religion. i know their sayings, their history, and even parts of the bible which I read to convince myself of the xian primitivity

2)that our folk was not at all barbaric. may the vikings have had berserks, and may, linking to the celts, the gauls have fought naked - what did they do - they killed each other with stems of trees, if you believe the legend of Haymon and Thyrsus, which is popular around my hometown.

3)we had organised court trials long before them

4) many heathen principles were adapted. our festive days were overdone by theirs to hem in the development of our religion. christmas should be in september. see the site of the asatru alliance for that, and the proof their sounds liable to me. many wise words were adapted. they got their easter from our belief. etc.

5) how come that a religion of hypocrisy says things about others they shoudl first come clear with what they do, before they criticize others.

6) The maybe only reason why they claim our gods to be homosexual is because they cannot live with the fact of i) the inferiority of their god, ii) the hypocrisy in their belief, iii) because xians always look for someone to blame.

7) I wont trust a religion that forbids the use of contraceptives to boost a holocaust that arises thorugh the inevitable spread of AIDS in africa.


the list of points could go on, but i think that even any of THESE abovementioned would do...

[Mike_76]

very good post, IMO, Sigurd.

[Sigurd]

Many posts in this topic are very good. This I have to say, too. ;)

[Schwarzesonne]

Also I understand that the word is only 30 year old, and that it's a descriptive word (although Mr. McNallen mentioned he brought the term here to America in 1972, so it might be older as a descriptive word)..

The term Ásatrú was coined by Danish scholars in the 19th century; but it has only been used to describe an active religion since the early 1970s. McNallen popularised the term more than anyone else. Even the Icelandic Ásatrúarmenn originally used the term Vor Siður (“our custom”). It’s use has become so commonplace, though, that I believe it’s even more recognized than Odinism in most places.

[Mike_76]

OK, thank you, Schwarzesonne.