Theodish

[Liffrea]

What exactly is Theodism? Is its main difference from Odinism just swearing an oath to a tribe?

[Lonnie]

What exactly is Theodism? Is its main difference from Odinism just swearing an oath to a tribe?


Theodism is a beast unto itself... The closest thing to it in Heathenry would probably be Irminism. We both draw the same or very similar conclusions from the same sources... Theodism is based on Tribal models. You will find Anglo-Saxon, Saxon, Frisian, Gothic, Norman, and other tribes represented in Theodism... The basic tenants of Theodism are beliefs in 'Right Good Will', 'Thew', and 'Sacral Kingship'...

Below is a piece from Piparskeggr on Theodism. Also listed below are links to some others places for reading about Theodism...

http://gamall-steinn.org/garman.htm
http://www.theodism.org/index.asp
http://www.newanglia.org/
http://ealdriht.org/theodisc.htm
http://sahsam.org/
http://normannii.org/

Theodish beliefs

Wæs þu Æll Hal!

Here's an answer I composed in answer to an inquiry about Théodism on the Asatru in Action list.

"A deceptively simple question, which needs more of an answer than space will permit, so the short form follows."

"First, a small, but important semantic point: Théodish, not Theodist, way of life versus ideological point of view."

"Here is a link - http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/BukRvwz01.html - to the book review I wrote about "Way of the Heathen" by Gárman Lord, the founder of Théodisc Ýeliefa in the modern era. Garman has been kind and said I have a fair understanding of Théodish Belief, for a non-Théodsman ;-) So I'll give that view to compliment any answer you receive from the resident Théodsman or two."

"The name comes from the Anglo-Saxon and simply means tribal belief. The Asatrú similicrum is Vor Trú. One posits traveling back 12 or 13 hundred years and asking a Dane or German or Anglo-Saxon, asf: "What is your religion?" After explaining the foreign concept of one's religion being a separate compartment of thought from te rest of life, said Elder Forebear would likely answer on the order of: <shrug> "My tribe's beliefs." Same answer one would reieve from any man or woman of a tribal nature and community I think."

"Where Asatrú is (in Vinland at least) modeled after the practices of the Goðic Republic in pre-Conversion Iceland, Théodism seeks to recreate the more structured and less codified ways of the pre-Conversion Anglo-Saxon and related tribal peoples."

"Théodism has been called a "Lawless" society. It is, in that, they have little or no written Law. Their community runs on Custom, Tradition and Thew. To become a member of their society, one must sell oneself into a form of Thralldom. During this period, one's "Master" or Lord in responsible for teaching you the "ties that bind" in Théodisc community. If a Thrall "runs away," there is no onus save one gets no re-entry. Once one has earned the Freedom of the Ricé, one can then exchange Oaths and become part of the Web of Oaths Thewing the community: Man to Lord, Lord to Man, usw."

"Ricé: Kingdom. An important point about Théodism - the Sacral Kingship. A very important part of the Thews of Théodism is the respect for and belief in the principle of Sacral Kingship. My understanding is that the King embodies the Luck of the Land and the Tribe, and acts as a conduit of that Luck on the Tribe's behalf. It's more complex than this, really..."

"Théodism is a very literate way of heathenry, some of the best modern writings come from Théodish writers. They strive to rediscover ways in which our forebears Thewed the Community and Fained the Holy Ones. Many of their people are very creative with handicrafts, song, music and in other ways."

"An interesting bunch of folks, with whom I am proud to say I have had friendship ties for several years now."

"If there are more quetions, have your friend write me, I'll get him in contact with Gárman, Eric Lord or other Théodsman."

"The answers are out there, somewhere ;-)"

--

=========================================

In Frith under Troth, may the Gods see you!

- Piparskeggr skjaldberi Ullar

AFA - AA - ORV - MSR

[Liffrea]

Thanks Lonnie. Great links. possibly not a move I would consider at the moment but at least I know what it is about now.

[Liffrea]

I have yet to join the OR. This is something I will do in September. I am currently out of work and my apprenticeship does not start till then so money is tight. But if I decided to join my local tribe sometime in the future would this conflict in any way with my membership of the OR? Would my oaths to the OR and any tribe I decided to affiliate with perhaps lead to a conflict of loyalties?

[Lonnie]

Are you talking about a Theod or a local Kindred?? There can be a very large difference between the two...
Ultimatly it depends on the Oaths one has taken and the laws of the organiztions one is joining...

[Liffrea]

I was reffering to a Theod. I gather that they are quite different from a Kindred.

[Osmaegen]

The basic tenants of Theodism are beliefs in 'Right Good Will', 'Thew', and 'Sacral Kingship'...

Just an update. Those were the basic tenants at one time, but I think now most Theodsmen will tell you that 'Right Good Will' has went the way of the passenger pigeon. Four Theodosh groups have been striving to be more Theodish and are eliminating anything not linked to the lore. The concept is not totally gone, it is now just called grith instead, the ancient term. Sacral Kingship is now called Sacral Leadership to accomidate the Saxons who had kings only in wartime. Thew, well, that is the same. BTW, I think Swain has a newer version of his article on Theodism posted at http://www.ealdriht.org now.

[Lonnie]

Just an update. Those were the basic tenants at one time, but I think now most Theodsmen will tell you that 'Right Good Will' has went the way of the passenger pigeon. .


I think you should probably say that those Theods who are not of High Theodism or Greater Theodism do not use that term anymore... To me, that term will never go away and IS part of what makes Theodism - Theodism...
Having come from "One of those other 4 Theods" (went through thralldom and earned my freedom), and though most newer Theodsmen don't acknowledge it, I do still consider myself to be of the Greater Theodish branch... The term and meaning behind it is still alive and well amongst those Theodsmen who aren't among "one of those other 4 Theods" and amongst Irminist...

[Osmaegen]

I think you should probably say that those Theods who are not of High Theodism or Greater Theodism do not use that term anymore... To me, that term will never go away and IS part of what makes Theodism - Theodism...
Having come from "One of those other 4 Theods" (went through thralldom and earned my freedom), and though most newer Theodsmen don't acknowledge it, I do still consider myself to be of the Greater Theodish branch... The term and meaning behind it is still alive and well amongst those Theodsmen who aren't among "one of those other 4 Theods" and amongst Irminist...

Actually, I cannot rightly say that. The only Theodish group that still exists that accepts those tenants as they were are the Normans, and it is debatable as to whether they are Feudalist or Theodish. The Winland Rice as I understand it no longer exists. I think with the evolution of Theodism, the idea of High Theodism or Greater Theodism has largely died out. You are either Theodish or are not. Swain has a book coming out next year on Theodish Belief I understand, including a chapter on the evolution of Theodism, and it should clarify things much better than I can.

Anyway, the idea as I am seeing it is that while they no longer accept Right Good Will, they have not done away with it entirely. Instead they prefer to use griþ, an authentic Heathen term. The aim behind Theodish Belief being in part to accept the thews of the ancient Heathens, and Right Good Will was not a thew, but griþ was a concept that the ancient Heathens would have known. When you look at what Garman originally envisioned Theodish belief to be, this makes perfectly good sense. Indeed, I have been told by the Wodenings and others Right Good Will did not play a great role in the Theodish Belief of the early 90s so in a way this is more of a return to what was. Regardless, I think any debate on this would merely be a quibbling over terms, and not any thing fruitful. BTW, it is the newer Theodsmen, not older, that seem to accept Right Good Will now. The Brothers Wodening, Gerd Æþeling, and Wulfgæst hláford were all on Garman's Witan or served as Heah Thyle in the early 90s at a time many of us had not even heard the term Theodish.

[Lonnie]

Well that's not totally true... While one may not see the Gering, it is still there... I have had the pleasure of learning much from Milord Garman, as well as other Theodsmen (such as Milord Eric) over time. And you and other Theodsmen may or may not like the terms, they are still alive and being used. Both by Theodsmen and others... They were good ideals and still are... It is something that some Theodsmen have moved away from, but it is their loss... To myself and a others of like mind, "Right Good Will" has been and will always be a huge part of what makes Theodism what it is... Without it, it is not Theodism... Like or not...

But this is NOT a Theodish hall, and I won't take up any more of our host bandwidth on arguing the finer points of Theodism...

[Osmaegen]

. To myself and a others of like mind, "Right Good Will" has been and will always be a huge part of what makes Theodism what it is... Without it, it is not Theodism... Like or not...

Well, I suppose that is part of my point, I do not know of any Theodish group that is without it in spirit. The term used for it, may have changed, and some of the finer points of it have been refined, but it is still there in some form.

I was not aware that Gering was still around. Last I heard they had dissolved. Anyway, I am glad they are still around. Eric Lord is fantastic is he not??? A true credit to both Gering and now Mercinga Theods.

[Schwarzesonne]

What exactly is Theodism? Is its main difference from Odinism just swearing an oath to a tribe?

Théodism is really a religion distinct from Odinism although it bears some superficial similarity. They use more-or-less the same source materials, call on the same gods, use a lot of similar terminology and so forth, However, the understanding of deity, the relationship between man and the divine, and the relationship between the individual and society are viewed very differently. Even the more tribal forms of Asatru do not share the same conceptions that are foundational ones in Théodism. For an interesting discussion about these matters by Gárman Lord (the founder of Théodism) click here (http://gamall-steinn.org/theod/gl-theod-asatru.htm).

Joining a Théod (= “tribe) there’s a whole lot more to it than just swearing an oath. Lonnie would be more qualified to describe this process than I, though.

[Schwarzesonne]

Theodism is a beast unto itself... The closest thing to it in Heathenry would probably be Irminism. We both draw the same or very similar conclusions from the same sources...
Well, yes and no. For clarification: Théodism and Irminenschaft, as you mention, do bear some common ideas based on similar sources. We also tend to use some similar terminology for the same reason. However, Irminenschaft in no way proposes a tribal model—which is what Théodism is all about! Irminenschaft--although it has borrowed heavily from Théodish sources--has also borrowed heavily from sources such as Armanenschaft which is a very different beast altogether. I like to view Irminenschaft as being the best of all those things that have gone before (in reawakened Heathenry, anyway), having learnt the lessons of history while still retaining those things that are ancient and immutable in the German tradition.

[Osmaegen]

Even the more tribal forms of Asatru do not share the same conceptions that are foundational ones in Théodism. For an interesting discussion about these matters by Gárman Lord (the founder of Théodism) click here (http://gamall-steinn.org/theod/gl-theod-asatru.htm).

Irminism comes close to, present day Theodism's tribalism IMO going by Coultier's book. I say that due to the emphasis on family extant in both.

BTW, I think any discussions by Garman Lord must now a days be taken lightly. They are far out of line with what the majority of Theodsmen believe today including such as the distinguished Eric Wodening. I refer you to: http://www.ealdriht.org/modules/theodism/

[Lonnie]

BTW, I think any discussions by Garman Lord must now a days be taken lightly. They are far out of line with what the majority of Theodsmen believe today including such as the distinguished Eric Wodening.


I think you may want to go back and learn proper respect for those who have earned it... Theodism, like all Heathenry, has evolved over time. None of those Theods you talk about are the same creature as found in High or Greater Theodism. Hel, None of them are the same amongst themselves... There are key things that make Theodism what it is. Without it, it is a neo form of Theodism at best and just plain Tribalism at worst (which unto itself isn't a bad thing)... I have been amazed over the last serveral years at how various Theods have gone about "re-inventing" themselves... And to make light Garman and what he did, is not something becoming of someone who claims to be Theodish... Even the various Lords of Theodism show Garman the respect he deserves... I know very well what Eric has written. His opinions reach only as far as his Theod... Such as with all Theods... Just because one Theod does something, doesn't make it Theodish. Nor does it mean it is the view of ALL Theodsmen...

Remind me, How long have you been Theodish??? Have you gone through Thralldom (or one of the various forms of it?)??? Who was your owner/teacher?? And when did you earn your freedom??

[enslaved1896]

Irminism comes close to, present day Theodism's tribalism IMO going by Coultier's book. I say that due to the emphasis on family extant in both.

BTW, I think any discussions by Garman Lord must now a days be taken lightly. They are far out of line with what the majority of Theodsmen believe today including such as the distinguished Eric Wodening. I refer you to: http://www.ealdriht.org/modules/theodism/

Enlighten me, since I have not read Mr. Coulter's book yet....

How is Irminenschaft similar to Theodism?

[Torquil]

I bought Garman Lord's "Way of the Heathen" recently and though I've never been interested in practicing Theodism, it was an interesting read. What I found especially interesting were his thoughts on anomie in modern American culture, and the difference between Activist vs. Quietist religions.

[Osmaegen]

Enlighten me, since I have not read Mr. Coulter's book yet....

How is Irminenschaft similar to Theodism?

Well, besides the belief in Wyrd, the Gods, and other such things, there is the emphasis on family. This emphasis on family is something you see in both, and rarely see outside them (with the exception of the OR perhaps). I am sure that is not the only thing, but not having MR. Coulter's book with me at the moment, I cannot make good comparasions.

[Osmaegen]

I think you may want to go back and learn proper respect for those who have earned it... Theodism, like all Heathenry, has evolved over time. None of those Theods you talk about are the same creature as found in High or Greater Theodism. Hel, None of them are the same amongst themselves... There are key things that make Theodism what it is. Without it, it is a neo form of Theodism at best and just plain Tribalism at worst (which unto itself isn't a bad thing)... I have been amazed over the last serveral years at how various Theods have gone about "re-inventing" themselves... And to make light Garman and what he did, is not something becoming of someone who claims to be Theodish... Even the various Lords of Theodism show Garman the respect he deserves... I know very well what Eric has written. His opinions reach only as far as his Theod... Such as with all Theods... Just because one Theod does something, doesn't make it Theodish. Nor does it mean it is the view of ALL Theodsmen...

Remind me, How long have you been Theodish??? Have you gone through Thralldom (or one of the various forms of it?)??? Who was your owner/teacher?? And when did you earn your freedom??

No one is making light of anyone. I am stating fact. I respect Garman cyning a great deal. However, one must acknowledge that Garman's writings are dated, and they do not refelect the Theodism of today. I agree there are things that make a Theod Theodish. However, we may disagree on what those things are. For me, foremost is the idea that they stay true to the social structures, and thews of the ancient Heathens. Without that, they are a modern entity.

You are right that just because one Theod does something doesn't mean it is the view of ALL Theodsmen. But when four are stating the same thing that is a different matter. I am currently not in thrall, nor oathed to anyone. This is largely due to not being in the area of a Theod. However, I do correnspond with Swain Lord a great deal, as well as others. I have emailed Swain. He promised to come here and make a statement.

[Hengest]

If Swain wants to make a statement he can do it on his own forum. This is "Odinist".com and whilst we have always welcomed comrades from wider heathenry this is not some battleground for factions of Theodism to argue their case. Lonnie clearly made this point in an earlier post.

If you want to continue please take it to pm's.