Hellenic religion officially allowed in Greece

[beowulf]

Greek gods prepare for comeback


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1767802,00.html


It has taken almost 2,000 years, but those who worship the 12 gods of ancient Greece have finally triumphed. An Athens court has ordered that the adulation of Zeus, Hera, Hermes, Athena and co is to be unbanned, paving the way for a comeback of pagans on Mount Olympus.

The inevitable christian reaction:


Father Eustathios Kollas, who presides over the community of Greek priests, said: "They are a handful of miserable resuscitators of a degenerate dead religion who wish to return to the monstrous dark delusions of the past."

As a Heathen I wish the Greeks well in reestablishing their native folkways. Seems like there used to be a Greek girl that posted here, I wonder what she thinks about the court decision?

[Urlinguald]

very awesome! makes me really happy

that quote makes me mad though. :mad:

[beowulf]

Apparently a broadly similar situation existed in Denmark where Asatru or Forn Sid as it's called there was recognized in 2003 I think. The Danes are much less under the thumb of the christians:


Home to the Vikings of yore, Denmark said Wednesday it will let a group that worships Thor, Odin and other Norse gods conduct legally-recognized marriages.
"To me, it would be wrong if the indigenous religion of this country wasn't recognized," Tove Fergo, the minister for Ecclesiastic Affairs and a Lutheran priest, told The Associated Press.

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=7124&sec=73&cont=5

[Adalwolf]

A forum administrator I know for a gaming forum I frequent is a Hellensimos. I'll post this thread there, and see if she replys.

But this is a victory for all of us. The more ancient pagan religions that become legalized, the closer we come to having our faith recognized all over the world.

On second thought, the community is primarily Christian and I don't think this would be taken lightly.

[The Wanderer]

very awesome! makes me really happy

that quote makes me mad though. :mad:

That quote makes me laugh with ironic hilarity. :D

Dark Ages anyone? :rolleyes:

[Arinbjorn]

one sweeps away the fly and screams at the bear. The more harsh thier reaction, the bigger the ripple we are making. Go Greeks!!

[beowulf]

That quote makes me laugh with ironic hilarity. Quite. :D The Greeks had their greatest achievements during the 'Classical' days their native religion held sway, before the coming of christianity. Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Pericles, etc. were all *gasp*
pagan.... Can the Greeks cite similar high cultural achievement post-christianity?

[Gwynyvyr]

As a Heathen I wish the Greeks well in reestablishing their native folkways. Seems like there used to be a Greek girl that posted here, I wonder what she thinks about the court decision?

I used to follow the Hellenic path and know many Hellenics. This news has been greeted with much delight. There is one problem; NATIVE Greeks are insisting that unless you are NATIVE and from a *pure* blood-line, you have no business following their path. And some of the Hellenic groups in Greece, want to ban *non-natives* from participating in Hellenic rituals at Greek sites.

I think it will eventually be worked out. Hellenics are going through a lot of *growing pains* as they re-establish their faith, both in Greece and elsewhere.

[Wolf_of_Victory]

As a Heathen I wish the Greeks well in reestablishing their native folkways. Seems like there used to be a Greek girl that posted here, I wonder what she thinks about the court decision?

I used to follow the Hellenic path and know many Hellenics. This news has been greeted with much delight. There is one problem; NATIVE Greeks are insisting that unless you are NATIVE and from a *pure* blood-line, you have no business following their path. And some of the Hellenic groups in Greece, want to ban *non-natives* from participating in Hellenic rituals at Greek sites.


Whats the difference between that and folkish asatruar? Good on them for preserving their ancestral religion and not allowing outsiders to corrupt it, after all the ancient Greeks never tried to convert anyone, so who, aside from the Romans, has any entitlement to it anyway?


Quite. The Greeks had their greatest achievements during the 'Classical' days their native religion held sway, before the coming of christianity. Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Pericles, etc. were all *gasp*
pagan.... Can the Greeks cite similar high cultural achievement post-christianity?

I was going to bring this up too. It's so funny how the medieval church loved Aristotle so much and called him the Philosopher. After being converted to Christianity and losing the Byzantine empire(which was more a Roman accomplishment than a Greek one), the Greeks have done a whole load of **** all. Ancient Greece produced Pythagoras, Socrates, Archimedes, Alexander, Plato, Aristotle, Achilles, Heracles, and laid the foundations of western mathematics, philosophy, politics, language and many many more things as well. Whats modern Christian Greece done? They've hosted the Olympics, which were invented by the classical Greeks anyway. Christianity has in no way affected thing slike scientific method, unless of course you see that scientific method is distinctly against christianity. So they only thing christianity has done is provide something for people to argue against how wrong it is and produce scientific discovery. To be honest I don't think we need a church who's only purpose is to show us how idiotic people can be, and persecute anyone who doesn't agree with them and their idiotic philosophy.

[Schwarzesonne]

There is one problem; NATIVE Greeks are insisting that unless you are NATIVE and from a *pure* blood-line, you have no business following their path. And some of the Hellenic groups in Greece, want to ban *non-natives* from participating in Hellenic rituals at Greek sites.

I think it will eventually be worked out. Hellenics are going through a lot of *growing pains* as they re-establish their faith, both in Greece and elsewhere.

Good for them! Like Amerindians, Japanese Shintoists, Anago, Odinists and others, some Greeks are reclaiming their heritage and their faith! More and more völkisch movements are appearing among various peoples—and I like to believe that the reestablishment of Asatru/Odinism has been a very important part of that!

[Gwynyvyr]

The main problem with the Greek Hellenic Pagans insistance that you be pure Greek and Native is that there are a hell of a lot of Greek folks in the US, UK, Australia, etc and the Native Greeks are insisting that if you were not born and raised in Greece, you shouldn't follow the Hellenic path. Also, they are of the opinion that if you are 1/2 Greek and 1/2 Swiss (or whatever), you shouldn't be allowed on the Hellenic path.

That is akin to being told "Since you weren't born and raised in Norway and your parents weren't Norwegian, you can't be on an Odinic/Asatru path."

[Adalwolf]

Yes, in this case I think the Hellenismos(es?) are taking Folkism too far. But I think they will soon drop that rule.

[Wolf_of_Victory]

The main problem with the Greek Hellenic Pagans insistance that you be pure Greek and Native is that there are a hell of a lot of Greek folks in the US, UK, Australia, etc and the Native Greeks are insisting that if you were not born and raised in Greece, you shouldn't follow the Hellenic path. Also, they are of the opinion that if you are 1/2 Greek and 1/2 Swiss (or whatever), you shouldn't be allowed on the Hellenic path.

That is akin to being told "Since you weren't born and raised in Norway and your parents weren't Norwegian, you can't be on an Odinic/Asatru path."


Well it is true to an extent, considering you're not immerse dint he culture and therefore you'd not be fully Greek or whatever. I was born and raised in England so I know a hell of a lot more English cultural things than a Canadian who is of English decent. When you are born and raised in North America or Oceania, somewhere away from Europe, you aren't fully European anymore. I think this can be overcome by learning more about where you're from and immersing yourself in the culture of where you're from. I agree with the Greeks in this case that your ethnicity is one part racial and another part cultural.

[Schwarzesonne]

I can’t really comment on the native/ non-native thing either way. That’s their bag. There are plenty of questions and challenges for us Germanic Volk to deal with without worrying about how another folk-group does things.

[beowulf]

There is one problem; NATIVE Greeks are insisting that unless you are NATIVE and from a *pure* blood-line, you have no business following their path. And some of the Hellenic groups in Greece, want to ban *non-natives* from participating in Hellenic rituals at Greek sites.

I think that's largely a positive thing. I don't feel I'd have any business at a Hellenic ceremony any more than a Greek does at a blot.
Those of predominately Italian, Greek descent even here in America, aka the 'hyphenated' would best look to Hellenic/Roman religion for their folkways.

[Freki]

I think that's largely a positive thing. I don't feel I'd have any business at a Hellenic ceremony any more than a Greek does at a blot.
Those of predominately Italian, Greek descent even here in America, aka the 'hyphenated' would best look to Hellenic/Roman religion for their folkways.

Unless I'm much mistaken, he is suggesting that the Hellenismos are only taking native Greeks, therefore rejecting Greek-Americans, or Greek-whatever. It would be like the European Odinist movement rejecting all New World'ers. In my opinion that turns it from being a folkish movement to a nationalist one, a political one.

[Sigurd]

Unless I'm much mistaken, he is suggesting that the Hellenismos are only taking native Greeks, therefore rejecting Greek-Americans, or Greek-whatever. It would be like the European Odinist movement rejecting all New World'ers. In my opinion that turns it from being a folkish movement to a nationalist one, a political one.

Well...we have a Greek restaurant in my hometown. The guy was born "off the boat" in Austria, yet educated in a Greek manner. So they would bar those people? Extreme case, but really - it is taking Folkism too far. It seems like they are saying Greek-Americans are more American than Greek. Which is in one way a nationalist statement, yet in another way going along with pc. ("You are more belonging to the culture of the country you grew up in than to the one of your ancestors) Ah well...can't do too much about it; and if people are willing to take it up, they can surely start another org over in Vinland or something...

[Wolf_of_Victory]

Well...we have a Greek restaurant in my hometown. The guy was born "off the boat" in Austria, yet educated in a Greek manner. So they would bar those people? Extreme case, but really - it is taking Folkism too far. It seems like they are saying Greek-Americans are more American than Greek. Which is in one way a nationalist statement, yet in another way going along with pc. ("You are more belonging to the culture of the country you grew up in than to the one of your ancestors) Ah well...can't do too much about it; and if people are willing to take it up, they can surely start another org over in Vinland or something...

Hate to break it to you but a 5th or 6th generation english-american isn't very english at all. Same goes for people of other nationalities who are american. I'm sure the Greeks in this case would accept a Greek who moved back to Greece and immersed themselves in Greek culture and became essentiually Greek. I think this would be a good thing in asatru if people practised the customs of their homelands and ceased being "american." From living in both Europe and North America, living half my lif ein England and half my lif ein Canada, I can tell you there's a world if difference.

[KarlMagnus]

To our Heathen ancestors, there would be no discernable difference between a 21st century American and a 21st century Englishman or a 21st century Scandinavian. They would not allow either to participate in their ceremonies if they were "ultra"-folkish. As the saying goes, "The past is a foreign country".

One could say: I don't think the Anglo-Saxons should have been allowed to practice Germanic heathenism because they left the continent for Brittania and became foreigners. Between the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and continental Europe are a world of difference.

Maybe the post-migration Germanic tribes should not have been allowed to practice heathenry because they were generations removed from their Scandinavian ancestors.

Now doesn't that just sound stupid?

KM

[KarlMagnus]

Hate to break it to you but a 5th or 6th generation english-american isn't very english at all.

I hate to break it to you, but for the most part, the English aren't very English at all. Unless suddenly tucking your leisure suit into your socks and wearing a sideways Burberry cap while blasting rap or techno out of your GTI was an Anglo-Saxon trait. Even the most culturally-conservative English have more Norman traits than English.

KM

[Wolf_of_Victory]

I hate to break it to you, but for the most part, the English aren't very English at all. Unless suddenly tucking your leisure suit into your socks and wearing a sideways Burberry cap while blasting rap or techno out of your GTI was an Anglo-Saxon trait. Even the most culturally-conservative English have more Norman traits than English.

KM

Well considering you don't live in England and you're using an wanna be american stereotype like Chavs as your example of the typical English person, I'm not going to bother debating about it with you.


One could say: I don't think the Anglo-Saxons should have been allowed to practice Germanic heathenism because they left the continent for Brittania and became foreigners. Between the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and continental Europe are a world of difference.

How did they become foreigners when they kept the same culture? Please donlt try and tell me America and Europe have the same culture, because that is laughable.

[aud_friggsdottir]

Please donlt try and tell me America and Europe have the same culture, because that is laughable.

Culturally we may be different, but we are the same Folk...Just as a Greek that lives in America is the same Folk as a Greek that lives in Greece. National borders, socially acceptable doctrines, fad clothing, etc... are simply modern *changeable* trappings. One cannot change their Folk.

I know that I was accepted as Folk among my English comrades, as was my hubby-who actually has recent English ancestry. And when my English comrades come here they too will be accepted as Folk...no questions asked. I think Folks are splitting hairs here.

If the Greek reawakening is going to be so closed minded that is their perogative, but lets not let this discussion deteriorate to a "who is Folk" thread....this is the only warning.

[Freki]

How did they become foreigners when they kept the same culture? Please donlt try and tell me America and Europe have the same culture, because that is laughable.

True, but as you know Northerners are vastly different from Southerners, Scousers aint the same as Manc's, Geordies are nothing like Machams (well, one wears black and white and the other red and white...) but they are all English in the end. If we follow this kind of narrow logic we will find ouselves eventually up our arses as a folk of 1.

Hellenism will die if they restrict it to Greek born Greeks alone, frankly they are going to find more support abroad than at home initially as the orthodox church has such a cultural grip, and that a fairly large slice of todays Greeks are of Turkish descent. They will have to find a balance between this ridiculous elitism and fluffy universalism if they expect to revive their religion as more than a group of recreationist hobbyists.

PS. Please remove if this upsets the warning above, I was a little eager to post and didn't finish reading...

[Wolf_of_Victory]

True, but as you know Northerners are vastly different from Southerners, Scousers aint the same as Manc's, Geordies are nothing like Machams (well, one wears black and white and the other red and white...) but they are all English in the end. If we follow this kind of narrow logic we will find ouselves eventually up our arses as a folk of 1.



I totally agree, and I'm of the opinion that americans should relearn their culture. In so far as they should become more German or English or whatever, as then through the small things in the culture they would be closer to being culturally folk. Americanism has polluted the world in my opinion and Europeans should look to their european roots in not only religion but also in culture. Not once did I ever mention an american or australian or whomever wasnt folk. I simply mean to say they would have better understanding of european traditions and of the european religion if they immersed themselves mor ein european culture.

[aud_friggsdottir]

Not once did I ever mention an american or australian or whomever wasnt folk. I simply mean to say they would have better understanding of european traditions and of the european religion if they immersed themselves mor ein european culture.

And not once did anyone say you did......and I very much agree! We shouldn't narrowly look at national borders to define whom we are...instead look to our Folk and Folkways!

FFF
Kathy

[Arinbjorn]

My question is what groops are leading this reawakening in greece? Is it everyone for them selves or are there OR/AA/AFA equivilents? This statment of excluding non-native greeks, to me, comes off as hearsay, or is it an official statment from the whole Hellenic comunity? We know as much as any one that nagative and/or false words travel faster and furtherthan the truth, and one mans oppinion can easily be misconstrude as official dogma.

[beowulf]

Yup, beware when tongues wag. What I meant is that it makes best sense for actual Greeks to prefer other Greeks to participate in their native religion in their native land. It's up to the Hellenes who they allow and don't to worship with them.
As for 'us' meaning Americans, I agree we need a much stronger sense of European roots and heritage to supplant the filth and rootless stupidity that passes for pop 'culture' and is called 'American'. If that is what is meant by 'Americanism' then I despise it as well.
I am an American Southerner of predominately English descent. I do not at all want to be identified with the bilge that is served on TV, which is unfortunately how the rest of the world sees Americans.

[Wolf_of_Victory]

Yup, beware when tongues wag. What I meant is that it makes best sense for actual Greeks to prefer other Greeks to participate in their native religion in their native land. It's up to the Hellenes who they allow and don't to worship with them.
As for 'us' meaning Americans, I agree we need a much stronger sense of European roots and heritage to supplant the filth and rootless stupidity that passes for pop 'culture' and is called 'American'. If that is what is meant by 'Americanism' then I despise it as well.


It's exactly what I meant.

[Gwynyvyr]

My question is what groops are leading this reawakening in greece? Is it everyone for them selves or are there OR/AA/AFA equivilents? This statment of excluding non-native greeks, to me, comes off as hearsay, or is it an official statment from the whole Hellenic comunity? We know as much as any one that nagative and/or false words travel faster and furtherthan the truth, and one mans oppinion can easily be misconstrude as official dogma.

I'll poke about and find the site that explains the *native born Hellene* philosophy.
There was a bit of a dust up about it last year on one forum I visit...I'll post it when I find it.

[Audace12]

Sadly,in Greece ortodox christians are more narrow minded than north european protestant ones,so for them it's harder to be heathen.I wish them good luck,and I think that the strict folish ones are not the majority

[Balders Rage]

Good news indeed.

The gods of the indo-europeans are reviving together.

The similarities in certain myths and deities of the Greco/ Romans and that of our own are sometimes uncanny ....

Zeus/Jupiter/Odin