AFA Leadership Course

[Ulric]

From Bearclaw

Question: How many of you would pay a reasonable fee for online
courses of the sort described below?

The AFA needs to develop leaders while raising the overall level of
education of Asatruar. To that end, we are considering creating a
series of web-based courses organized into several certification
programs (Tentatively, a so-called "Gothi/Gythja Program," a program
in what might be called "ministerial duties," and a more advanced
program in lore and the techniques of leadership. Subjects would
include lore, ethics, history, the art of leadership,
counseling,organization, etc. Courses would be organized into
programs similar to various degree programs offered by institutions of
higher learning.

These would be taught by the best-qualified individuals we can find.
Courses would have a specific starting and ending date and students
would be held to high standards. Interaction with professors would be
via email and telephone. A web site would be set up to serve as a
contact point for course members, accessible through a secure area.

There are already fully accredited online degree programs that use
such a method. Our would not be accredited yet, but we would be
taking a step in that direction.

Such an AFA program would seek to work in cooperation rather than
competition with courses offered by others in the Asatru/Germanic
community. While we feel we need a unique program to meet the needs
of the AFA, we would gladly support others engaged in parallel projects.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW if you would pay for such a service, and what
amount you might consider fair for each course.


3. CLARIFICATION - Dues at the AFA Patron and Benefactor levels
need not be paid in one lump sum! We can set up a regular billing
schedule for members signing up at these levels of commitment.


Hail the Gods!
Hail the AFA!

Steve McNallen

www.runestone.org

[Kai Forkbeard]

Heilsa,

I've come across manu Asatruar willing to become Gothar/Gythia and have really done their homework.Accrediatation in this regard is anything but simple. I'm not talking simply on the individual's end of things... rather the community needs a say in such matters as well. What community is the potential gothar/gythia to serve. Is this simply a self-improvement course, or what?

What does it mean when one out of every three Asatruar become "ordained". Is that really the level of learning we wish to peg ourselves at? I would never discourage anyone from higher learning when it come to the Elder Troth....all the while we need to keep an eye out for us becoming a community of people who think we know it all.

This sounds too much those "Learn to be a Paralegal" pamphlets I get in my mailbox....

Frith,
Kai.

[Asbrandsson OR]

Hello,

I think that courses in general are good, unless they are so watered down that anyone can pass it. Then it is meaningless. One in three Odinists should not be ordained as a Gothi/Gythia because probably one in a hundred or one in a thousand is a number closer to the mark. Although one in three might try, many will not and can not succeed.

Asbrandsson OR

[calumthug]

I personaly would pat for the course. Training is good. At the very least I would learn some things and develop useful skills.

However; I douldn't forsee even mentioning such credentials. In my mind it is the respect of the kindred that matters.

Another positive point to this training is that it might (I doubt it, but it might) cut down on the people who call themselves Gothi or Gythia, but have no real grasp of even the Eddas and are just out to impress people with thier titles.

[thorson]

In my opinion, you cannot train somebody to be a leader. Either you are leader or you aren’t. If somebody has a predisposition to be a leader and they are mentored by a person who is experienced and knows how to apply that knowledge, then perhaps that tree will bear fruit. It might even bear fruit if they are not mentored because the individual has the will to succeed, self-discipline, and can communicate their ideas well to others. That is not something that sitting in the classroom can teach you. I have an advanced degree, and I will be the first person to admit, that a degree or a certificate without experience is practically worthless. It’s a good building block to success, but it can’t be used as a crutch. I’ve met too many people who have said that they have a PhD or a MA in a particular field, and therefore, you should believe everything they say, when in reality they don’t know **** from shineola. There are a lot of dangerous people out there who are educated well beyond their intelligence. Just taking a course or having a degree in something doesn’t make somebody an expert.

I would pose to you the following questions:

Why do you feel that you need to take a class to become “ordained”? There is no written dogma in our faith. Honor the gods in they way you see fit. You don’t need a class to do that. If anybody tells you, you are doing something inappropriately, either they are ignorant or they have their own agenda. I might not do something the way you do, but I’ll never tell you your wrong. If I knew all the answers, I wouldn’t be member of this forum. It’s always good to see something from a different perspective than your own. It gives good food for thought – even if you do not agree with it.

How much is this going to cost you? If somebody is really interested in promoting our faith, they wouldn’t charge for it. If they do, I hope that it would be just to cover the costs incurred. An individual’s time ought to be donated for free. It’s in all of our interests that more people of European descent come back to our ancestral faith.

Do you really believe that taking a course will make you some kind of leader in our faith? Either you have it in you or you don’t. I have met a couple of people in our faith (there aren’t many) and its amazing to me that most of them consider themselves to be a Gothi. It’s like everybody wants to be chief and there are no ****ing indians. That is a Christian concept if you ask me. We do not need leaders to tell us what to believe or how to do it. That’s up to you as an individual. I met a group of people one time in our faith and they told me that I didn’t mention spirituality enough in my conversations to them. Spirituality and daily living go hand in hand. There is no separation. It was as if to them the soul and the body were separate. The bottom line is do you feel that you are going to learn something from this course that you will not be able to learn on your own. If you have self discipline, patience, and the thirst to learn, you don’t need it. Wotan offered himself to himself and had to make great sacrifices in order to gain knowledge. You can do the same. If you feel that somebody is more knowledgeable than you, and wishes to mentor you, you shouldn’t be charged for it. Anytime somebody asks for money be su****ious.

[Asbrandsson OR]

In my opinion, you cannot train somebody to be a leader. Either you are leader or you aren’t.

Hello,

That actually is a totally unfounded premise. Anyone can be taught to be a leader. Just that not everyone is good at it. Competence in a job is based on three factors- Experience, training and the ability to work unsupervised. Are there many incompetant Gothar around- sure there is. One of the reasons is that there is very little in the way of training.

Asbrandsson OR

[Cottatt]

It depends on why you want to take the course, many of us are 'acting' Gothi, but, without certificates of ordination, we cannot claim to be a religous congregation leader under the laws of some countries, and thus, the tax exclusions we are entitled to, nor grants etc. that we could apply for.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

The only thing that bothers me is I feel no one should be able to tell you if you can or cannot be a spiritual leader for asafolk. Did our heathen ancestors have courses to take deciding who could or could not be a Goði? I mean if someone has the wisdom, knowledge and has been a practicing Asatruar for some time should a peice of paper really decide if they are a Goði or not? I feel it should all depend on their connection with the high ones, not a "Pass" or "Fail" grade, of course that is all my opinion :)

[Sigurd]

Very good, Hved.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

Very good, Hved.
Very good?

[Sigurd]

The only thing that bothers me is I feel no one should be able to tell you if you can or cannot be a spiritual leader for asafolk. Did our heathen ancestors have courses to take deciding who could or could not be a Goði? I mean if someone has the wisdom, knowledge and has been a practicing Asatruar for some time should a peice of paper really decide if they are a Goði or not? I feel it should all depend on their connection with the high ones, not a "Pass" or "Fail" grade, of course that is all my opinion :)

I was hinting at this post, expecially the last sentence, about the "Pass" or "Fail" grade.

[thorson]

Hello,

That actually is a totally unfounded premise. Anyone can be taught to be a leader. Just that not everyone is good at it. Competence in a job is based on three factors- Experience, training and the ability to work unsupervised. Are there many incompetant Gothar around- sure there is. One of the reasons is that there is very little in the way of training.

Asbrandsson OR

I don't think it's unfounded. It just the way I look look at it. Your post suggests that anyone can be trained to be a leader. They just may not be good at it. I don't consider somebody who is poor at leading a leader. Not everybody is cut out to lead. I work with guy who has 15 years experience in his job. He's the most senior person where I work and he is totally incompetent. Every day is like the first for him. I wasn't there a week and he was already asking me how to do things. It doesn't matter how much training he gets, he still can't do the job. If he wasn't in a union, he probably would have been fired years ago. Leadership courses can refine a person's leadership abilities if they have that ability to start with.

[Asbrandsson OR]

It depends on why you want to take the course, many of us are 'acting' Gothi, but, without certificates of ordination, we cannot claim to be a religous congregation leader under the laws of some countries, and thus, the tax exclusions we are entitled to, nor grants etc. that we could apply for.

Hello,

I think that ordination certicates are meaning less unless the course has some kind of success and fail rate to it. I think that that is part and parcel to real training. Without training a person can still be a Gothi, but without the informal intruction from people like Heimgest of the OR I would not have been able to avoid many of the pitfalls of getting a OR Hearth up and running here in Edmonton. Heimgest comes from a time when there was no advice or training available and if he and others like him do not formalize it, then the next generation of Gothar will not benefit from it and are more likely to make mistakes that would easily be avoided.

I would like to also add that because someone is a leader in a religious community does not make them a Gothi nor does being a Gothi necessarily make someone a leader.

Asbrandsson OR

[Asbrandsson OR]

The only thing that bothers me is I feel no one should be able to tell you if you can or cannot be a spiritual leader for asafolk. Did our heathen ancestors have courses to take deciding who could or could not be a Goði? I mean if someone has the wisdom, knowledge and has been a practicing Asatruar for some time should a peice of paper really decide if they are a Goði or not? I feel it should all depend on their connection with the high ones, not a "Pass" or "Fail" grade, of course that is all my opinion :)

Hello,

I think that there are two levels to this answer- on one hand, in my experience, people who jump up to tell the world that they are a leader are really never any good. "Hey everybody! I will be the leader and you can all follow me." I do think that in a group there is usually some people who organize things and some people that make decisions. Otherwise nothing gets done.

However, when it comes to an organizational level- of course Gothi are promoted, demoted and moved around, according to need, know how and opportunity.

Asbrandsson OR

[Asbrandsson OR]

I don't think it's unfounded. It just the way I look look at it. Your post suggests that anyone can be trained to be a leader. They just may not be good at it. I don't consider somebody who is poor at leading a leader. Not everybody is cut out to lead. I work with guy who has 15 years experience in his job. He's the most senior person where I work and he is totally incompetent. Every day is like the first for him. I wasn't there a week and he was already asking me how to do things. It doesn't matter how much training he gets, he still can't do the job. If he wasn't in a union, he probably would have been fired years ago. Leadership courses can refine a person's leadership abilities if they have that ability to start with.

Hello,

I think that your example sums the situation up in a nutshell. If someone goes to school for welding it does not make them a good welder. But it also does not mean that you shut down the welding school. A good welder might also be incompetant because they cannot work without direct supervision. Can an incompetant Gothi give you good advice, have a working knowledge of our sacred and mundane lore, perform accurately various rituals? Sure they can, he/she might not be a good Gothi/Gythia, but they can still be one.

Asbrandsson OR

[sticko_69]

Hail

It is hard to say you can be made a leader or even your born a leader.

Im curently serving in the Australian Army were they teach there is no such thing as a born leader, with training and experance you can be made a leader. however my experance is differnt in this ive seen some very bad leader in and out of the army training and no training, now dont get me wrong some people who arnt born a leader still make great ones sometimes better than they ever knew. A feel strongly that only you can make your self a leader.

what dose it mean to be a leader:
a leader is someone that can manager a group of people and resauses towards a common goal or objective.

My leader ship experance is strange it streaches back to my young age of 10 i joined Scouts and i iderlised the older boys in my troop i wanted to be just like them. then one day i found they had all moved up and i was the oldest but i was only young they seemed much older what i found was that i had taken what they had left me with and i became just like them. being thrown in the deep end opened me up i became a leader like the ones i wanted to be like. i then joined cadets a few years latter and worked my way to a high rank befor i joined the army. in the army i am only new yet ive been put on my premotion cause ahead of my peers. why?

so my 10yrs of experance has shaped me or was i always like this, was it in my blood.

in the Asatru community i used to live in the ring giver was the leader but for our moots any one could lead if you wanted to lead the moot or be part in it you just did no cause needed my brother lead the last one. the ring giver is not a leader more an advisor my father is the curent ring giver he is wise and it is his wisdom that gives him his position, most people go to him for advice that is what i think the leader needs to be a wise person some one people will look up to can you teach that???

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

The fact still remains while you can "teach" someone to be a Goði as far as giving courses and tests, no one can teach a connection with the gods on a spiritual level. To me that is what a true Goði is.

[calumthug]

Some good points here.

How much is a reasonable fee?

As it was with our ancestors, I feel that it should be the will of the people(kindred) who is gothi. However; If I were to become gothi, I would like to be able to perform legal weddings and funerals without having to go through the Universal Church of Life. 1. If you peruse the site, it is Christian. 2. My dog is ordained through them, if you get my point. Perhaps someday a course such as this could make that possible.

This course might make a good building block for any asatruar. Unfortunately, this is all speculative untill we actually see the course.

[thorson]

The fact still remains while you can "teach" someone to be a Goði as far as giving courses and tests, no one can teach a connection with the gods on a spiritual level. To me that is what a true Goði is.


Well said.

[Lonnie]

The fact still remains while you can "teach" someone to be a Goði as far as giving courses and tests, no one can teach a connection with the gods on a spiritual level. To me that is what a true Goði is.


To quote Jon Grimstienr from one of three pieces on Gothi's (http://gamall-steinn.org/oldway.htm)


About Gothi's

I think it all depends on the Kindred.
It all depends on the Gothi. On How he reads the Lore.
On the "Model" he has chosen to follow.
I lead a Kindred, in Central Indiana.
We've been a functioning Kindred since late ' 94.

I was asked by several Folks who were all getting together,
at my house to do Blots, that I was presiding at, to do this.
I have been priest, friend, leader, teacher, etc, in the Pagan/Heathen Community, for many years, before I "came home" to Asatru.

In my experience, A Gothi does serve as priest, but he serves the Kindred also, in many roles.

A Gothi's role depends very much on the strength, of the Gothi, his wherewithal, his leadership and wisdom, as well as his priestship.
As Gothi, he provides the Hof, or place of Assembly, provides the Feast, provides Mead & Ale, for assemblies, assembles the Kindred, presides at Blots & Sumbels, gifts his Gythja, and Kinsmen, at Jul, & Birthdays(?). He also sometimes serves as the "lightning rod", for the Kindred,
absorbing jolts & charges sent in our direction.

The Gothi, however, serves his Kindred, even prospective members, as Friend, councilor, & benefactor, when he's able.

I'm not saying it "must" be this way, but how it works for us.

In the Lore, a Gothi is not only a priest, but a leader, benefactor, councilor, friend, chieftain, defender, and serves at the will of his folk.

A Gothi is Known by his *generosity*, as much as by his leadership.

If he looks behind him, when he's called, to stand, for his Kindred, and no-one is there. Then he is not a Gothi.

Anyone who takes the title, or is given the title, without a Kindred, group to support him or following, is a hollow gothi.

A Gothi must stand for his Kindred, at Althing, as a delegate, if the Kindred chooses to Affiliate with any sort of greater, national organization.

There are many factors in the title "Gothi". Each Kindred, each Gothi is different.

This is how I see the situastion and have tried to lead my Kindred.

Again, I'm not saying this is how it "MUST" be but how it works for us, and how I see it in the Lore. I'm a lucky man, so far, to have what I have.
I have a great Kindred, great Friends, around the country.Just *my * thoughts.

YMMV ! !

Hail the Aesir and Vanir! Hail Odin! Hail the Northern Folk!

' Til Later.................Farheil,

Jon Grimsteinr-Gothi

HofBrau Kindred

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

Thanks for the read.

[TruGunny]

I would pay!!!!! leadership training is an important aspect that shouldnt be neglected. as an aside, I was the Director of my command's NCO Academy for 3 years... i think i still have, or can get my hands on, any type of Marine Corps leadership class outlines, sylabus, etc.. if it will help.

Semper Fidelis,
TruGunny :)