Should an Odinist not work and earn for themself?

[BerserkDog]

I was reading some comments in the forum and was curious as to what you thought.

A few folks claimed to "lean to the left" on financial issues. If I read this correctly, it would insinuate that they see merit in the welfare state (the comments were in regards to them oweing money). In my eyes, this is hardly a value an Odinist should embrace.

Should an Odinist not work and earn for themself and not rely on governments' reapportion of wealth? I see no problem with folks helping each other out but, a left-leaning you-owe-me attitude strikes me as a trait Judeo-Christians started and continue to perpetuate, ever increasingly, in our society.

[thorson]

I was reading some comments in the forum and was curious as to what you thought.

A few folks claimed to "lean to the left" on financial issues. If I read this correctly, it would insinuate that they see merit in the welfare state (the comments were in regards to them oweing money). In my eyes, this is hardly a value an Odinist should embrace.

Should an Odinist not work and earn for themself and not rely on governments' reapportion of wealth? I see no problem with folks helping each other out but, a left-leaning you-owe-me attitude strikes me as a trait Judeo-Christians started and continue to perpetuate, ever increasingly, in our society.

I lean to the left a little on financial issues. Things happen that can put people behind the eight ball. If you get hurt, and need financial assistance, I think you should get it. However, there has to be a limit. There are many people who abuse the system and the government doesn't do crap to move them off of welfare. Partly due to the way that the government finances things. They provide a certain amount of funding, and the agencies receiving that money spend every last dime. They have the mentality that they have to spend everything or when the next budget comes around the amount they get will be reduced. The way things are funded needs to be changed because it does not promote wise spending, which in turn causes agencies to turn a blind eye on welfare cheats and dead beats.

[Vanatru]

Does not a gift deserve a gift?

If you give to the Government, by choice or not, should you not recieve back when you need it? A freeman giving to king his yearly tribute, a king giving back to his freeman when his crops have failed?

[Hengest]

This thread was closed by a mod and quite rightly. However I was asked by BerserkerDog in a PM and said it could be posted (Something I didn't have time to tell the mods).

So long as it pertains to financial issues from the point of view of Odinism then I am happy for it to stay open. Let's not look on it as a left right political issue but more a discussion from a heathen perspective based on the question:

"Should an Odinist not work and earn for themself and not rely on governments' reapportion of wealth?"

[aud_friggsdottir]

I believe that self reliance is an important virtue, as is self discipline. Also, a person should be happy with what they have and never be ashamed for what they do have. (Havamal) No one should live beyond their means simply to "look good" or "keep up with the Jones' ".

With that said, we should work to help each other and build a foundation so that when a person is in need his/her Folk come together and help the person. Since many don't have Folk around them, I wouldn't look down on them if they received public assistance. Basically, if our isolated Folk can not count on us for help when needed, especially in this "global economy" then why fault them when they must, for food and shelter, get public assistance.

Personally, we have helped several of our local Folk with clothing, food, money, transportation, child care, etc...etc...etc... With us it is a Gift for a Gift....For instance, one of our Hearth members was without a car and was having a real issue with transportation. Another member happened to have a car the had no use for, so there was a match... Not for free because the receipient of the car offered a service (some kind of yard work or something...can't remember right now) for the car, so it was more of a trade...a Gift for a Gift. By no means do we constantly help those that can't help themselves, but when Folk are in a tight spot once in a while...we should help them. (Mind the use of "Folk" is a very narrowly defined concept)

Instead of complaining of a problem, maybe we could discuss a solution?

FFF
Kathy

[thorson]

Kathy,

I agree with totally. There are many people who through no fault of their own end up in hard financial times and they may not have any family upon which to rely. As long as they are trying to help themselves, I see no problem with helping. People who abuse the system because they are lazy only detract from those who truly need aid. People caught cheating the system ought to be put into an Arbeitslager.

Thorson

[BerserkDog]

Instead of complaining of a problem, maybe we could discuss a solution?

FFF
Kathy

What would your solution be? I don't think it would involve giving vast amounts to a beaurocratic fun-house so it can, in turn, be given to some needy folks (some) and also to (many) others who only live for that next check from the government. You can see the blatant abuse in the recent aftermath of hurricane Katrina. I didn't hear too many of those folks say "What can I do to help myself?" I did, however hear a resounding " The government isn't helping me enough." How much is enough and who should get it? It should be up to you, me, and anyone to say "who", "when", and "how much".

I donate, I give. I am also forced to donate (read: "taxed out the wazoo") and give to those undeserving and not truly in need of my help.


What is the solution?

[Don vonMilikowski]

Been working since I was 13.

Went on unemployment when the Union had no work. My kids were both born on ACHESS. Workman's Comp for when my shoulder was messed up. I visit the Veterans Hospital when I cannot afford a doctor..... Oh wait, these are programs I pay for in my taxes or military service time..... Well Workman's Comp is paid through the company's insurance.....

There is a difference between using what you do and abusing the system.

If you are going to sit on your bottom and collect welfare, you are a plague to socieity. This is coming from a man who went through a bout of depression when he found out he may never work in his chosen profession because of loss of use in left arm....... I am back in my trade now. Lots of work.

[BerserkDog]

You sound like a good man and a fighter. :thumbup:
I am glad your situation changed for the better. Still, you were not willing to "sit on your bottom and collect welfare".
What is ACHESS?


Been working since I was 13.

If you are going to sit on your bottom and collect welfare, you are a plague to socieity. This is coming from a man who went through a bout of depression when he found out he may never work in his chosen profession because of loss of use in left arm....... I am back in my trade now. Lots of work.

[Don vonMilikowski]

State Welfare for medical insurance

[aud_friggsdottir]

What is the solution?

The solution is to start Folk Building. Nothing comes easy and it takes work, but from tiny acorns come might oaks. Start now connecting with like minded Folk, start looking toward alternative economy where less of your money goes to taxes, start using barter and exchange, help your own through current effort in this same arena, in other words, start building the foundation so your children and their children will not have the burden you have now. You may not see the fruits of your labor, BUT it isn't about *you* it is about the future of your Folk.

We cannot do anything about how are government spends our tax money, but we can do something to ensure that our children have a future better then our lives now. You can only work and change things in your sphere of influence and change does truly start at home. Think globally, but act locally.

I will post my many articles about Folk Building if people want it.

Also, don't just donate anywhere, be choosy, help those that can help themselves... Be exclusive. Only help your Folk.

BTW, all my suggests I and our Hearth DO. You want the solutions, look to those that are working the solution. Just because it doesn't happen overnight, doesn't mean that it won't work, just means you won't see the fruits of your labor in your lifetime.

[thorson]

Been working since I was 13.

Went on unemployment when the Union had no work. My kids were both born on ACHESS. Workman's Comp for when my shoulder was messed up. I visit the Veterans Hospital when I cannot afford a doctor..... Oh wait, these are programs I pay for in my taxes or military service time..... Well Workman's Comp is paid through the company's insurance.....


You have to love the VA. I went to them one time and I hope I never have to go back. I got a doctor who could barely speak English. I practically needed an interpreter to talk to the guy. He gave me a clean bill of health even though I complained about groin pain. Two weeks later a hernia dropped. What joke that place is. That ought to put our congressmen into that system and not allow them to use any private insurance or doctors. I bet they would fix the problem.

[BerserkDog]

The solution is to start Folk Building. Nothing comes easy and it takes work, but from tiny acorns come might oaks. Start now connecting with like minded Folk, start looking toward alternative economy where less of your money goes to taxes,
This alternative economy, to me and with what limited knowledge I have, seems to be only able to come to fruition when (hopefully) a flat sales tax is put into place. The more you consume, the more you are taxed. You would not be taxed on earning, giving etc. Folk would be more able to give to Folk.

start using barter and exchange, help your own through current effort in this same arena, in other words, start building the foundation so your children and their children will not have the burden you have now. You may not see the fruits of your labor, BUT it isn't about *you* it is about the future of your Folk.
Barter would be great. My skills are service-based, not product based. I am a network manager at present but have all sorts of skills (electrical, datacomm etc...) that could conceivably be bartered in exchange for other services or items. Is there some contact list for such bartering? If not, there's an idea. A Folk barter database.


We cannot do anything about how are government spends our tax money, but we can do something to ensure that our children have a future better then our lives now. You can only work and change things in your sphere of influence and change does truly start at home. Think globally, but act locally.


I will post my many articles about Folk Building if people want it.
Please do.


Also, don't just donate anywhere, be choosy, help those that can help themselves... Be exclusive. Only help your Folk.
I am quite choosy. My family even adopted 2 wolves at a local nature center. :D


BTW, all my suggests I and our Hearth DO. You want the solutions, look to those that are working the solution. Just because it doesn't happen overnight, doesn't mean that it won't work, just means you won't see the fruits of your labor in your lifetime.

[Asbrandsson OR]

I was reading some comments in the forum and was curious as to what you thought.

A few folks claimed to "lean to the left" on financial issues. If I read this correctly, it would insinuate that they see merit in the welfare state (the comments were in regards to them oweing money). In my eyes, this is hardly a value an Odinist should embrace.

Should an Odinist not work and earn for themself and not rely on governments' reapportion of wealth? I see no problem with folks helping each other out but, a left-leaning you-owe-me attitude strikes me as a trait Judeo-Christians started and continue to perpetuate, ever increasingly, in our society.
Hello,

I believe that people from time to time need a hand up, but not a hand out. I think that we should as a community work together to support each other and support a common advance. As the Government dole is not advancing anything but in fact stiffling us as a people.

Asbrandsson OR

[Schwarzesonne]

I believe that people from time to time need a hand up, but not a hand out. I think that we should as a community work together to support each other and support a common advance. As the Government dole is not advancing anything but in fact stiffling us as a people.

Sadly, this is just too true. Our institutionalised society is becoming increasingly noted for schools that fail to teach, for hospitals that fail to cure, for prisons that teach better criminal methods, and a welfare system that does not promote anyone’s welfare except a few liberal politicians!

Our Volk need to work together to support one another. Sometimes this can come through organized programmes such as the Heathen Scholarship Fund or the East Coast Thing Children’s’ Fund. Other times it can be less formal—for example, when one of my kinsmen was low on $$ but too proud to ask for help, we all brought frozen turkeys, canned hams, bags of potatoes, usw to every gathering, making sure that they’d be left at his house until his financial woes were worked out. There is one national organization (I won’t name it because it hasn’t become official yet) that is even looking into making group health insurance available for its membership!

However it gets done, and whatever steps are locally appropriate, our Volk need to sustain one another. Support Heathen-owned businesses, baby-sit the kids of Heathen friends before others, &c., &c. The Jews and Voudon practitioners have done this for countless years; Amerindian and Gypsy organizations are beginning to do this as well. What in the 9 worlds is stopping us?!?

[Don vonMilikowski]

Steve,

What is stopping us is lack of unity.

People too busy tripping over each other over petty things and not bonding to overcome the large things. People standing on soap boxes waving a flag, and not following through. Lack of motivation. Laziness in the movement, well mostly the lazy majority. Poeple allowing personal views and politics to stand in the way of sucking up some pride and working together.

I remember trying to help and being pushed aside because someone thought it only took one to steer the boat and not a crew working together. If something happens, I have time (my kids live in Utah) and can create money (got a handy little machine in the back). I picked up reigns before and looked around and saw smoke, from people retreating, that is when I lost faith in the Folk.

I am willing to work with someone, but not spearhead. I do not give people money, that is enabling. Gift demands gift. I know how to get people's attention and turn it towards our cause.

But until there is unity, there is nothing.

[aud_friggsdottir]

But until there is unity, there is nothing.

I tend to agree...but things like longevity, ability to put the needs of the group above ones own pettiness....sometimes being the "brave" rather than the "chief", remembering to put the horse *after* the cart, etc... I like the ideas of Heathen Scholarship Fund (and have talked to Lonnie about it before and will again when we have something more to talk about), Healthcare is interesting too. Perhaps these groups need to make public the process so it can be duplicated elsewhere in other Heathen communities....

As for unity...I think that is not the way of our Folk, but cooperation on a mutual goal IS possible (been there done that as well). Many groups feel they lose identity if they unite. I think it a better idea to maintain identity and cooperate on mutually beneficial goals. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but if a group maintains autonomy at least if things don't work out each member group can move on without having to "reform" or whatever.

But this takes teamwork, lack of ego and being solution/goal oriented....THAT is where I see a big problem...

[Don vonMilikowski]

Been in the scene for 20 years, ain't seen unity yet.

Just seen a bunch of people sitting around campfires talking about big dreams. People on the internet talking big talk. No action. Always someone compaires us to the Nation of Islam, Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints (Mormons), Jewish, etc, BUT no one wants the community issue. Not to be a nay sayer, when I see it, I will believe it. I wasted 15 years hoping, then I lost faith.

I do not think it will ever happen, like when we were kids and had those fantasies of what would become of us when we grew up - who is living that fantasy?

I would like to be proven wrong (okay, there is still little hope in me, fading fast).

It takes a bigger person to say they were wrong and reach out across the table and shake his enemy's hand than it does to strike his enemy from a safe distance. Do we want to build something or do we want to sit and poke fun at each other.

Operation Ivy put it a good way - Unity, as one step together.

Until then, just a bunch of old ladies sitting at the fence talking gossip and rumors.

If you can't tell I am prodding people to make moves. Insult enough and it prods them

My facial jewelry can disappear, I wear long sleeves if needed. I can and am able to make speeches. I do not say "uh, um, duh" etc. And I can hold back a cursing tongue. I keep my cool under pressure (fight for your kids in front of a judge, very emotional but made it through without one insult - got joint custody from sole custody). I can make any opponet look like a babbeling idiot or send them in a frenzy to look like a rabid dog. I am not afraid of crowds. The tools are out there, do not be afraid to use them. I am very deep understanding of our ways, and do not speak down to people iin a mass meeting.

There are other's out there, use your tools. have people do the jobs they are good at. You cannot take someone who is afraid of their own shadow and expect them to lead. I do not want to lead, no intrest in being someone in control, too easy to warp people that way, but I can be a voice and a hammer.

If the leaders step up, everything will fall into place...... And I am not talking about self-appointed leaders, I am talking about the ones with the talent from birth. A self appointed leader is nothing more than a paper dragon, looks big but nothing.

...... Now I will get off my soap box and allow for conversation ......

Now I have that damn song stuck in my head......... Some Necromantix oughtta take care of that.

[Don vonMilikowski]

Unity is teamwork.

Unity is taking the best of all and the worst of all...... You can still maintain seperate identies. My friends and I were always tight, they did *****, I kept sober (as far as ***** were concerned) and we all stuck together thick and thin (still do). I work in construction, we have to work together as one to build a project, yet I am an electrician not a plumber.

Try a different argument. Sounds like another excuse.

[Eoghan Odinsson]

BerserkDog, that barter database is an excellent idea! We do have a forum for barter and trade though.....have you checked that out?

[aud_friggsdottir]

Unity is teamwork.

Try a different argument. Sounds like another excuse.

LOL...you think you know it all...Thats cute. Hate to break it to you but unity is compromise often for the lowest common denominator. Been there DONE THAT. You use unifying with druggies as an example....lol...What was the common cause, what was the important goals for the future you and your comrades trying to accomplish? Scoring the next high?

Cooperation is only touching bases on common ground...once accomplished the respective groups go back and keep working their plans and goals. They don't compromise for the sake of unity, but rather compromise for the sake of a common goal...then move on.

Sounds from your posts that you are looking for excuses...not me.

BTW, I have been in the cause for 20 years too buddy, and we have 6 kids, a THRIVING Folk Community that includes 7 independent families, business owners, a school and home school, alternative economy methods, Prison outreach, community outreach, etc... we have been working the plan for nearly 5 years now. It isn't unity...it is cooperation. It is vision. It is taking up the fight rather philosophizing about it or "supervising" it. Everything I talk about doing I have done I wouldn't pretend to give advice without having experience in doing it...rather Donar's Hearth OR and our Folk community has done it. Ask around....I get enquiries all the time about moving up here and becoming a part. In fact, in the past year 3 families have come into the fold. The cool thing is that we will never be done. It is continuous growth, my kids will take up the reigns when Darryl and I are done and their kids will also.

If you want to work in something that works...it is out there...it just isn't part of the "mainstream Asatru" scene. Obviously this is where your experience comes from...

FFF
Kathy

Never doubt that a small group of dedicated individuals can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has! ~ Margaret Mead

[Don vonMilikowski]

May work in small numbers, what we are talking about is a mass movement.

Once again, show me.

True, the Kindred I spent a fair ammount of time in was one of the first in the Asatru Alliance, even in the old Asatru Folk Assembly days (pre AA), did you not notice I left the Kindred on mutual terms? Sick of seeing spinning wheels.

We were gutter punks, they were my friends. We were young. I am an old non substance abusing individual, no illegal ***** ever entered my system, but I protected them against the long hairs and the rednecks when we were out in public. They scored with their own dough. I have some funny stories about how we used to get money too.

I am looking for answers, I want to know why in the 30+ years of American Asatru NOTHING has happened. Why so many have picked up the flag just to drop it again. I see a pattern.

Looks like I hit a switch, now lets use the anger and sarcasm you used for me on moving forward instead of bickering here. You want to do something, I offered my skills, time, and some cash - show me what to do.

[BerserkDog]

BerserkDog, that barter database is an excellent idea! We do have a forum for barter and trade though.....have you checked that out?

Yes I have and am in the middle of buying something. :thumbup:
Maybe we could start Obay as an Odinist answer to Ebay. Could even be spelled "Obey". :yes:

[aud_friggsdottir]

Looks like I hit a switch, now lets use the anger and sarcasm you used for me on moving forward instead of bickering here. You want to do something, I offered my skills, time, and some cash - show me what to do.

LOL...I DO move forward, I DO....DO in real life...dedicated my life to working a workable plan. I think it is YOU that needs to move forward instead of wallowing in self pity about a soured relationship with a past organization(s). Where is your the Northern spirit of fighting even if it means total failure? Continuing the fight? Anger, no, bewilderment at your cynicism? Yes. Sarcasm...Yes :D

Here you go...but no mere website will tell you what you want to hear...

www.********rite.org
www.sigrdrifa.net
http://www.sunnarisinghearth.co.uk/
http://www.blacksunrising.net/ (website is down at the moment)

Donar's Hearth OR doesn't have a website, but that is because our webmistress is busy with several real life activities.


I know there are other groups around the country working locally to build, but not aware of websites and also can only talk about those I know personally, but I invite Steve, Lonnie, etc... to post some websites showing their positive strides.

It is the focus on mass movement that has stagnated our Folk. Our Folk doesn't have the awareness anymore to have a mass movement, so we must build the foundation of Folk awareness in small pockets to that we can support a mass movement in the future. Again, tiny acorns, might oaks.

Seeing the big picture is good, but working the small picture to attain the big picture is best...

Now I have already posted my Hearth's and large Orgs accomplishments, I have "showed" you as much as one can on the net, it is you that needs to put forth effort...I am a "put up or shut up" type person....it is all white noise without action...hence we are so action oriented.

Think about this...30 years is but a drop in the bucket of time. Failed tries help to make successes...I admire those that try and fail rather than never try. At least activists can learn from their mistakes and create positive strides and successes. Do you really think that there will be some mass movement that will "unite" our Folk under one banner in OUR lifetime?

Ok...now off MY soapbox...people who know me in real life know I walk the walk AND talk the talk. :swinghamm (lol)

FFF
Kathy

[aud_friggsdottir]

Yes I have and am in the middle of buying something. :thumbup:
Maybe we could start Obay as an Odinist answer to Ebay. Could even be spelled "Obey". :yes:

LOL....that's great! Actually that isn't a bad idea! What would that entail?

FFF
Kathy

[BerserkDog]

This place http://cgi.resourceindex.com/Programs_and_Scripts/Perl/Auctions/ has bunch of online auction programs some even free.


LOL....that's great! Actually that isn't a bad idea! What would that entail?

FFF
Kathy

Overstock.com already owns "Obay.com". Obey.com goes to a porn site.
Is there a program that runs online auctions the way vBulletin etc is available for online forums?
I'll try Google, and then gizoogle that when I find it :D .

It would truly take someone more knowledgable about computers and programs than me.

[Don vonMilikowski]

You do the Sigdrifta thingamajigger?

Kel (my ex wife) and I tried to get with you a number of times, a lot of crossed wires. We were working on revamping the Continuing Clan that the Taylor's started quite a few years ago. Getting things put together for families. I believe she and you (maybe or somone else in there) about a clothing something or another for kids (been a while). People stopped contributing and I was wasting money on web space so....... I have all the old stuff here on file (Continuing Clan) if you are interested, some good poetry and ideas. My ex and I still are good friends, still argue like exes do. I might be able to prod her into something too, she needs something to do in her spare time...... Besides eat and smoke......

I am all about families, anyone who knows me knows that.

I am a put up or shut up type too........

I will PM you some of the things I was working on......

One thing you forgot...... an invite.

Gig in four hours (+/-) if anyone wants to see some good old ANGRY Punk music, and are in the Phoenix area, holler. (looked like a good spot for a plug)

[Schwarzesonne]

It is the focus on mass movement that has stagnated our Folk. Our Folk doesn't have the awareness anymore to have a mass movement, so we must build the foundation of Folk awareness in small pockets to that we can support a mass movement in the future. Again, tiny acorns, might oaks.

Seeing the big picture is good, but working the small picture to attain the big picture is best...
(...)

Think about this...30 years is but a drop in the bucket of time. Failed tries help to make successes...I admire those that try and fail rather than never try. At least activists can learn from their mistakes and create positive strides and successes. Do you really think that there will be some mass movement that will "unite" our Folk under one banner in OUR lifetime?

Very good points, indeed!

Mass movements such as the Odinic Rite and the Asatru Alliance have done great things for the promotion of our faith—things that perhaps couldn’t have been done by smaller groups.

However, the heart of our triuwa is the community; and a sense of ‘community’ comes from small, local groups, not from large organizations. The devotion to the tried and true friend (or kinsman) means something much more to most people than any movement does. But if that friend and the ‘movement’ are one?

The member groups that compose the organization built what gave the OR, the AFA, and all the others the significance that they have earned over the years. All the org did was to insure that the other groups and individuals were aware of these accomplishments.

Something I learnt from one of my kinsmen that really changed my approach to things: When you want to see something get done, don’t go to your kindred/hearth/sippâ and call for a vote. Everyone will say, “Yes, yes!” but nothing will get done. Instead, go to your kindred/hearth/sippâ and say, “I’m going to do this; who’s with me?” If one or more people agrees to help, the credit goes to the group. If no one volunteers, than you take the credit. Either way, the activity will get done and a contribution to the movement is made. But if the group gets the credit some great public relations is gained in the process!

The Odinist movement—whether that be in the guise of Irminenschaft, Asatru, or what have you—has made incredible strides in the past few decades. Compare that to the growth rate of, say, the Christian Church, and anyone will be very impressed! But, unless we are happy becoming a footnote in someone’s thesis about marginal religions 100 years from now we’ve still got a very long way to go.

BTW, allow me to add the website of the Irminen-Gesellschaft (http://www.irminenschaft.net) to Kathy’s list!

[aud_friggsdottir]

This place http://cgi.resourceindex.com/Programs_and_Scripts/Perl/Auctions/ has bunch of online auction programs some even free.



Overstock.com already owns "Obay.com". Obey.com goes to a porn site.
Is there a program that runs online auctions the way vBulletin etc is available for online forums?
I'll try Google, and then gizoogle that when I find it :D .

It would truly take someone more knowledgable about computers and programs than me.

Well it all starts with an idea :). I am computer literate but not that kind of literate...lol. Try making a thread in the Barter and Exchange section!

[aud_friggsdottir]

Hail Steve!


Very good points, indeed!

Thanks!


Mass movements such as the Odinic Rite and the Asatru Alliance have done great things for the promotion of our faith—things that perhaps couldn’t have been done by smaller groups.

However, the heart of our triuwa is the community; and a sense of ‘community’ comes from small, local groups, not from large organizations. The devotion to the tried and true friend (or kinsman) means something much more to most people than any movement does. But if that friend and the ‘movement’ are one?

And the heart of the community is the family :). Of course agree with you 100%.


The member groups that compose the organization built what gave the OR, the AFA, and all the others the significance that they have earned over the years. All the org did was to insure that the other groups and individuals were aware of these accomplishments.

An organization is just that, organizes things, gives voice to their members and groups, provides stabilization, support, and, in the case of Folk orgs, inspiration to simply do.


Something I learnt from one of my kinsmen that really changed my approach to things: When you want to see something get done, don’t go to your kindred/hearth/sippâ and call for a vote. Everyone will say, “Yes, yes!” but nothing will get done. Instead, go to your kindred/hearth/sippâ and say, “I’m going to do this; who’s with me?” If one or more people agrees to help, the credit goes to the group. If no one volunteers, than you take the credit. Either way, the activity will get done and a contribution to the movement is made. But if the group gets the credit some great public relations is gained in the process!

Darryl always says..."build it and they will come" and that is what we as a Folk Community have done and are doing...sometimes slow, sometimes fast, but always steady and forward. My biggest hope is that Folks copy our successes, learn from our mistakes, and inspire us to keep moving. :)


The Odinist movement—whether that be in the guise of Irminenschaft, Asatru, or what have you—has made incredible strides in the past few decades. Compare that to the growth rate of, say, the Christian Church, and anyone will be very impressed! But, unless we are happy becoming a footnote in someone’s thesis about marginal religions 100 years from now we’ve still got a very long way to go.

I couldn't agree more...We won't be a "marginal religion" if I have anything to say about it, which I have a really big mouth :p.


BTW, allow me to add the website of the Irminen-Gesellschaft (http://www.irminenschaft.net) to Kathy’s list!

I was hoping you would :)....

Onwards and Upwards!
FFF
Kathy

[aud_friggsdottir]

You do the Sigdrifta thingamajigger?

Kel (my ex wife) and I tried to get with you a number of times, a lot of crossed wires. We were working on revamping the Continuing Clan that the Taylor's started quite a few years ago. Getting things put together for families. I believe she and you (maybe or somone else in there) about a clothing something or another for kids (been a while). People stopped contributing and I was wasting money on web space so....... I have all the old stuff here on file (Continuing Clan) if you are interested, some good poetry and ideas. My ex and I still are good friends, still argue like exes do. I might be able to prod her into something too, she needs something to do in her spare time...... Besides eat and smoke......

I am all about families, anyone who knows me knows that.

I am a put up or shut up type too........

I will PM you some of the things I was working on......

One thing you forgot...... an invite.

Gig in four hours (+/-) if anyone wants to see some good old ANGRY Punk music, and are in the Phoenix area, holler. (looked like a good spot for a plug)

See my PM :)

[Loki's Advocate]

I don't like money much at all... but I work at two jobs (during the school year) during the year because I happen to need the horrible grubby stuff.

A person should provide as much for themselves as they are able to, given their circumstances.

Ideally, we'd all provide for and produce 100% of what we need ourselves, but not a single person can do that; and anyone who says otherwise is a liar. So we are all at least a little dependent on others*, given the situation, aren't we? It's a question of how much.

*: I'm assuming that people can automatically depend on their families and friends, and vice-versa; sadly, that's not always the case for everyone.

[attak53]

I believe that self reliance is an important virtue, as is self discipline. Also, a person should be happy with what they have and never be ashamed for what they do have. (Havamal) No one should live beyond their means simply to "look good" or "keep up with the Jones' ".

With that said, we should work to help each other and build a foundation so that when a person is in need his/her Folk come together and help the person. Since many don't have Folk around them, I wouldn't look down on them if they received public assistance. Basically, if our isolated Folk can not count on us for help when needed, especially in this "global economy" then why fault them when they must, for food and shelter, get public assistance.

Personally, we have helped several of our local Folk with clothing, food, money, transportation, child care, etc...etc...etc... With us it is a Gift for a Gift....For instance, one of our Hearth members was without a car and was having a real issue with transportation. Another member happened to have a car the had no use for, so there was a match... Not for free because the receipient of the car offered a service (some kind of yard work or something...can't remember right now) for the car, so it was more of a trade...a Gift for a Gift. By no means do we constantly help those that can't help themselves, but when Folk are in a tight spot once in a while...we should help them. (Mind the use of "Folk" is a very narrowly defined concept)

Instead of complaining of a problem, maybe we could discuss a solution?

FFF
Kathy

Kathy I agree 100% with you on this issue, I don't feel that anyone is owed anything from the government but I strongly agree that if you personally can afford to help out your folk than you should.

[Guntram]

The more the natural integration within kin and family is destroyed, the more people will need help from the government.

And there is crisis.

Here in Brandenburg, more and more people depend on help from the government, because there is not enough paid work and prices are rising. Everyone I know around here has one or more unemployed family members - and there are many families with none employed member at all.

About 60 or 70 % of the population in Brandenburg is not able to earn their living by their own work. (pensioners and children included)

Forbid Brandenburgs heathens to take money from the state and they will starve.

[Guntram]

Here comes the positive thinking aspect - not just for you, dear Kathy! ;)

Especially in Brandenburg there are some really "heathen" ways to solve many of the problems.

Some areas in Brandenburg would be ideal for "folk building" - not for heathens, but for the ordinary natives - and people are trying, but are hindered by - you guess - government and laws.

I'm working on ways to steer around that obstacles. :cool:

[Guntram]

Forbid Brandenburgs heathens to take money from the state and they will starve.

Sorry, that was exaggeratedly written. Many of us are not unemployed. ;)

[thorson]

About 60 or 70 % of the population in Brandenburg is not able to earn their living by their own work. (pensioners and children included).

When I lived in Berlin many years ago, I remember reading that the unemployment rate in Brandenburg was around 30%. It would be difficult to cut things off to those people. I hope your efforts pay off.

[attak53]

The more the natural integration within kin and family is destroyed, the more people will need help from the government.

And there is crisis.

Here in Brandenburg, more and more people depend on help from the government, because there is not enough paid work and prices are rising. Everyone I know around here has one or more unemployed family members - and there are many families with none employed member at all.

About 60 or 70 % of the population in Brandenburg is not able to earn their living by their own work. (pensioners and children included)

Forbid Brandenburgs heathens to take money from the state and they will starve.

I didn't mean to offend anyone with my comments, which were made towards people in the U.S., as I do not know enough about the enemployment in other countries. I also realize that there are people that truly do need help and I am not against legitimate help. My comments were made towards the American public that sits on Welfare for 30 years and never makes an effort to find a job because they make more on welfare a week than I do working 50 hours. I do feel at time that people need help for a short time while they get back on their feet.

[Asbrandsson OR]

The more the natural integration within kin and family is destroyed, the more people will need help from the government.

And there is crisis.

Here in Brandenburg, more and more people depend on help from the government, because there is not enough paid work and prices are rising. Everyone I know around here has one or more unemployed family members - and there are many families with none employed member at all.

About 60 or 70 % of the population in Brandenburg is not able to earn their living by their own work. (pensioners and children included)

Forbid Brandenburgs heathens to take money from the state and they will starve.

Hello,

I think that the problem is that so many people are so dependent on the state that they can not really understand a time when people took care of themselves.

In Canada Newfoundland is one of the biggest welfare and unemployment drains in this country. At one time those people took care of themselves, but when all those programs came to make lives "better", people killed their goats, cows and other animals stopped growing gardens, handing cloths down and around and just waited with their hand out. The thing with hand outs is that they are never enough. I think that sometimes a hand up is just telling people to take care of themselves. It may seem cruel and unusual, but it has worked for that last 40 000 years.

Asbrandsson OR

[Katia]

It's true, and most would be amazed at what they can accomplish when it comes to a matter of survival! The state that Newfoundland is in is truly sad. It's come to a point where the province is liberally selling licenses to kill seals just to make money, in a completely uncontrolled manner that might threaten their very existence. The seals aren't being killed to feed anyone, or to be used to keep someone warm.. they are being killed to have their penises cut off for use in asian aphrodisiacs! I saw a news broadcast of a cute little seal being clobbered in the head and it broke my heart!

[Guntram]

@ attack53

You've started a good and important discussion.

There are many people who are not forced but accustomed to sit on Welfare in Germany, too.

@ Asbrandsson


I think that the problem is that so many people are so dependent on the state that they can not really understand a time when people took care of themselves.

For 40 years Brandenburg was part of a communist State. And 15 years of kapitalism destroyed many of the abilities and facilities to take care for ourselves that had survived communism. I will be a hard fight to get them back.

[HowlingOskorei]

I have thought about this issue for quite some time now. I live in Nova Scotia, a part of Canada that has a lot of unemployed and underemployed. Stephen Harper called us a "culture of defeat who expects the government to bail them out". People were offended by that and the Liberals even used quotes from this speech in one of their don't vote Conservative attack ads. However, Mr. Harper is right. We have been becoming increasingly disinfranchised and we just sit back while our jobs are being outsourced to the Third World, and government policies set forth by the Liberals support this. Then they held us down with their economic exploitation, raising the cost of a post-secondary education, while keeping wages low, and sucking us dry of our natural resources and keeping the profits in Ottawa. Then they started these programs like ACOA, funding programs, government handouts, as a way to even further demoralize society. Now an increasing number of Nova Scotians are on "pogey" (slang word for the government cheques). It's almost like a serfdom really, or what the English did to the Highland Scots after the Battle of Culloden to keep them demoralized. Yeah, we are a culture of defeat and the government made us that way with their "pogey" and ACOA, they got us used to getting handouts, and when we do get money handing over large sums of what we make, then brainwashed us into thinking that this is the only option outside of moving to Alberta. Iceland has basically the same economy as we do here, and before they separated from Denmark, they were in the same boat, maybe even worse off. As they broke free from their Danish feudal lords, they became more self-reliant. Yes, it did require a lot of work, but now Iceland is in complete control of it's natural resources and the economy is booming. I wish the average Nova Scotian would see this need for self-reliance and severing ties from Ottawa. I think I'm the only person who sees this, when I discuss this issue with my friends, they say that we will crash and burn if we do that. No we won't! Actually, that response is an example of Stephen Harper's "culture of defeat" that prevails in the Maritimes.

I'm very tired, maybe this rant doesn't make sense, however, I do believe the government is at fault for training people to take handouts. We have a whole generation of wefare recipients in this province: their parents were on welfare and now they are. That's one way the government can control people. My country is going into a general election tommorrow, and the whole basis of the current Prime Minister's campaign to get re-elected is that the other candidates will cut their handouts. It's mind-control being disguised as a democracy. Those like myself who choose to think for themselves and be self-reliant in Eastern Canada are marginalized, I have a lower standard of living than those on welfare or pogey. The difference between me and them though, is that they have very little control or freedom in their lives. They may have a lot more and nicer material things than me, but they really have nothing.

I'm all about getting into politics someday and addressing what I think is the issue, maybe even run on a Maritimes Separatist platform. The West and Quebec saw through it and have their movements, why can't we?

[HowlingOskorei]

Actually I forgot about this in my previous post:

I can think of one example of our culture of defeat even at the high levels in the Maritimes. Halifax was recently named Canada's Most Violent City. What did the mayor of Halifax do? He started to grovel to federal level MPs in Ottawa to give the Halifax Police Force more funding. A better solution, in my opinion, would be to sit down with locals to try and figure out what is causing the problem, then take appropriate action... we need to take responsibility and be more accountable for OUR actions. Problems are better solved at a grass roots level. People in an isolated tribe in Africa are ravaged by famine and war, their community or tribal leaders don't run to the leaders of their countries with puppy dog looks on their faces in hopes of getting money (well, mainly because they don't have that option), they take initiative themselves at a community level to train people in agriculture, fishing, obtaining potable water and basic things like that. Sure, it takes more time and effort, but it actually eradicates the problem. I don't know, I'd compare the mentality of depending on handouts to a bad injury, and taking initiative is equivalent to doing all the steps to making a complete and full recovery: physio, meds, etc, while the government handout would be the equivalent to putting a Band-Aid on it and sending them home.

This is way off the subject, I think you guys were talking more about individuals, but then another poster brought up his hometown in Germany, and I see the same things going on in my hometown (Halifax). And I used to claim that I am left-leaning, and yes, I am for left-leaning concepts like public health care, but I am sounding very right-wing right now.

[HowlingOskorei]

Also, Newfoundland wasn't always as bad as it was, not until Ottawa stepped in and robbed them of their very way of life (the cod fishery). They also take money that would have stayed in the province where it belongs and could have been used to rebuild or develop had they not joined Confederation. Same happens in the Maritimes, we get ripped off, but people take it! Why? Because the handouts are too damn good. It's just another method of control. Some abusive husbands do it to their wives so they won't file for divorce: beat her a bit, then buy her something nice, beat her some more, buy her something nicer than the last nice thing, beat her again, etc etc etc.

[Katia]

I know what you're talking about.. I'm originally from Quebec, and it is much the same way there.. One of the reasons I moved away was that the only job I could find there was waitressing, even with college credits under my belt. And when I found out that people made more on welfare than I did busting my butt 40 hours a week, it was enough for me to pack my bags and move!

[HowlingOskorei]

I know what you're talking about.. I'm originally from Quebec, and it is much the same way there.. One of the reasons I moved away was that the only job I could find there was waitressing, even with college credits under my belt. And when I found out that people made more on welfare than I did busting my butt 40 hours a week, it was enough for me to pack my bags and move!

I hear ya. When I was 16 I worked at a Tim Horton's coffee shop, I was working there for a while and got promoted a few times, and when I was 17 I had people with degrees working UNDER me. It's was hard as a 17 year old telling someone with a degree what to do and how to do it. I have a degree in history, and I was lucky enough to land myself a job in my field. The only problem: the centre was only open in the summer so I would have to be on pogey all winter. I tried it, almost went nuts, so I went back to school for IT courses and got a part-time job at a Dairy Queen. Now I'm still in school.

People on welfare have a better quality of life than I do, and it bothers me. The other day, my friends and I were out having a smoke at school and talking about politics. This girl on welfare butted in and she started trashing the Conservatives because they plan to cut welfare. Wanna know what was in her ears? The trademark white headphones from an iPod. I can't afford an iPod, and I bust my *** at work AND go to school. On top of that, she gets her school and textbooks paid for and apparently doesn't show up for class half the time, while I have to borrow money from the bank, which I will have to pay back at a high interest rate to pay for my education. Also, I haven't taken my medication in 3 months because I can't afford it, people on welfare have government subsidized pharmacare. They also get their dental work paid for by the government, while I'm sitting here with a cavity and I'm waiting for it to abscess so I can get it fixed for free at the hospital, because I can't afford to see a dentist. I think it's absurd.

I did get the government to pay for dental work once. This was back when I used to smoke weed, long before I got into Asatru. A bunch of us were out smoking at a party, and this girl who's never worked in her life butted in and wanted a haul. It was my weed, so I refused to pass the joint to her, saying "I only smoke up taxpayers". Well, she punched me in the face, pretty damn hard too. LOL

[Sigurd]

"I only smoke up taxpayers".

LOL, good one though. :D

[HowlingOskorei]

Yeah, so true. If I still smoked I wouldn't pass it to someone on welfare. It's a luxury that only working people should be entitled to.

Maybe I am right-wing, I just took the Politics Test, and I scored as a Republican, and the politician I matched closest: Dubya. EEW! GAK! I wanna shoot myself in the face! Probably if I was in a better mood I'd score more to the left.

[Adalwolf]

I don't know where my political standings are, wether I'm right- or left-wing. Frankly, I don't know the difference really.

Still, I think the government should take care of those financially burdened, but not in the form of welfare. I say cut welfare, and only keep the things like disibility.

[HowlingOskorei]

I don't know where my political standings are, wether I'm right- or left-wing. Frankly, I don't know the difference really.

Still, I think the government should take care of those financially burdened, but not in the form of welfare. I say cut welfare, and only keep the things like disibility.

Yeah, I agree. Disability is good to have, and they have a legitimate reason.

I consider myself lucky to live in a country with a social safety net like disability, EI, and public health care. I was reading my e-mails today, and I read one on a Yahoo list that I'm on from a guy who is ex military from the US who wanted to start his own business, but his credit was bad due to a motorcycle accident. I think that's terrible, especially because it was someone who served his country, and now is ambitious and productive enough to be an entrepreneur! Having bad credit can affect many aspects of your life. I was in a car accident and I am glad that health care was there, I would be in financial ruin without it: I wouldn't even be able to get a student loan to finish school if that was the case.

Yet, if I'm not mistaken, don't the bottom feeders on welfare in the US get free health care? It just isn't right.

[texas heathen]

Workfare is the way to go. If you are able you work! If nothing else you can scrub up graffiti in you neighbor hoods or clean the streets.
FFF/HTR
Clif AOR

[HowlingOskorei]

Yeah I wish they had workfare in Canada.

[Loki's Advocate]

And from what I can see, being wholly dependent on other people (or nearly so) is about the most demoralising thing (a) people can experience.

[Don vonMilikowski]

Yes Loki's Advocate, but still many abuse the system.

And here in the States it is not just people of color, plenty of White trash abusing the system to get their free things.

Demoralizing or not, some people do not care. They would rather suck the nation dry and everyone around them too. It would be fun to walk up to everyones' house that is on welfare of some sort and figure out why they are not working, and if capabile of work, making them earn their bread. Sending all the illegals back to their homes with fines for being here, a 5 mile no-mans land on all borders (Mexies are not the only illegals). Using our Narional Guard side by side with the Border Patrol........... Did I write that out loud.......

This sounds easier than expecting a change ::bang:: ::bang:: ::bang::

[attak53]

Yes Loki's Advocate, but still many abuse the system.

And here in the States it is not just people of color, plenty of White trash abusing the system to get their free things.

Demoralizing or not, some people do not care. They would rather suck the nation dry and everyone around them too. It would be fun to walk up to everyones' house that is on welfare of some sort and figure out why they are not working, and if capabile of work, making them earn their bread. Sending all the illegals back to their homes with fines for being here, a 5 mile no-mans land on all borders (Mexies are not the only illegals). Using our Narional Guard side by side with the Border Patrol........... Did I write that out loud.......

This sounds easier than expecting a change ::bang:: ::bang:: ::bang::

I agree 100%, don't care what it sounds like, right is right.

[hrolf]

I am next to broke, need medication but have no health insurance, and can't afford food other than ramen, but I refuse to take handouts from the government. Instead, I spend my hours applying for jobs, which has resulted in three interviews in the last two days. These are jobs that pay upwards of $45,000 a year. Instead of accepting defeat and taking handouts, I am working my a** off to get something better for myself. Yes, it's hard living in poverty for the time being, but I have the determination to attain something better for myself. The only time I would take handouts from the governent is if I was permanently disabled and had exhausted all other avenues for making a living for myself.

[aud_friggsdottir]

Yes Loki's Advocate, but still many abuse the system.

And here in the States it is not just people of color, plenty of White trash abusing the system to get their free thing.

True, but then I only care about my Folk (again work in that sphere of influence) and if they need it and my taxes are paying for it...I think they should...especially if I can't directly help them. BUT unless we start somewhere to change things...then nothing will change and we can't expect our government to do anything...like they care.

"People of color" have plenty of programs and money for them...they certainly get enough help.



Demoralizing or not, some people do not care. They would rather suck the nation dry and everyone around them too. It would be fun to walk up to everyones' house that is on welfare of some sort and figure out why they are not working, and if capabile of work, making them earn their bread. Sending all the illegals back to their homes with fines for being here, a 5 mile no-mans land on all borders (Mexies are not the only illegals). Using our Narional Guard side by side with the Border Patrol........... Did I write that out loud....... ::

Uh...the Fed would NEVER allow it...ever. We live in maintained chaos for a reason.



This sounds easier than expecting a change ::bang:: ::bang:: ::bang::

Change is in our hands.

FFF
Kathy

[Sigurd]

Disability is good to have, and they have a legitimate reason.


Still lots of ways to "abuse" the system there. All you have to do is exaggerate.

[beowulf]

My personal belief is that industriousness and self-reliance are to be emulated as much as possible by Heathens as per 9 virtues, Havamal, etc. Sometimes misfortune befalls one that can't be overcome by onesself. I've been through rough times financially but luckily have never yet had to rely on public assistance. I've nothing against helping those Folk in need that cannot overcome difficulties by their own power.

[Loki's Advocate]

Yes Loki's Advocate, but still many abuse the system.


I know that! I'd have to have been living in a cave like a blind-fish to not have noticed that.

What I meant is, that's why it's important for us to set a good example in this regard. Because, you're dead right, it isn't just 'the darkies' of our respective countries that have this reprehensible attitude toward the rest of society in today's world... :rolleyes:


True, but then I only care about my Folk (again work in that sphere of influence)

Likewise- more or less. (Oh... if I can help out someone who isn't, I will, but never at the expense of people who are actually important to me.)

That's (incidentally) why I really think we should be more concerned with our own 'self-improvement' than the faults of others, which are of course myriad.

We should be willing to chastise our own faults honestly, and to make honest attempts to improve ourselves. Because we can do that, and therefore contribute to the welfare of our societies, better than we can improve the faults that other people have.