Different forms of Odinism

[llllissallll]

I'm new to this all. Der Einzelgänger brought me here. I've been doing some reading about odinism over the past few days. Der Einzelgänger was telling me about the different kinds of odinism (ex. anglo saxon). I guess I just really wanted to know the major differences and what other kinds of odinism there were. Would I go with the one that most matched my background. :confused: Any other helpful information about odinism would be great too.

[Der Einzelgänger]

:rolleyes:
I said that there were different names for the gods and different interpretations of things, and some used different runes, like the anglo saxons.

Anyways, she's more english than german so I told her she might be more comfortable using the anglo saxon runes and names of the gods.

[Hengest]

Use what you feel comfortable with. I am English but don't feel the need to use Anglo Saxon names or runes.

[Draconian Umpire]

From what I know, it's split into different cultures, the Scandinavians have Odinism, the Germanics and Franks have Irminism or Germanic Heathenry, and Britons and Saxons have Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, which I think has a different name. Feel free to correct me.

[llllissallll]

Yeah I'm English as well. So I wasent sure if I should use Anglo-Saxon. So I guess I'll just stick with whatever I feel most comfortable with.

[Lonnie]

You have many a different group out there, alot based on various regional differences one would have found in elder times. But none are complete, so you will find alot of things that are common to most...
You have groups that include, Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, Saxon, Norman, Frisian, Gothic, Icelandic, Scandinavian, Longobards, Baltic, and others...

[heilwotan]

Besides the ones mentioned above, or to go along with those, there are/they are:

-Folkish
-Tribal
-Universal
- and others?

These are more like political classifications, but make a world of difference.

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

There is nothing political about being Folkish heilwotan.

[Schwarzesonne]

Yes, there are a wide variety of forms of Odinism. My own, Irminenschaft, is German. But there is also Hedenskap (Norwegian), Hedenskab (Danish), Anglo-Saxon (English), Heithanissa (Dutch), Ásatrú (Icelandic) &c. The differences in these are not political, but more in style and expression. See, for example, the website of our organization, the Irminen-Gesellschaft, at www.irminenschaft.net for a taste of the Germanic form. I’m sure that a simple web search would help you find some of the others if you’re curious.

[Der Einzelgänger]

What are the major differences? Is it just the names of the gods are a little different? I'm almost all German except for some Scandinavian blood on my mother's side. I was looking through the Irminism page and it felt right, but I'm just more confused now... I'm just not sure now...

[Hveðrungur Kveldúlfsson]

The names of the Gods are different basically becasue of language and some of the practices are different as far as rituals and traditions go becasue of their roots in the different areas of europe but when you look at the big picture no matter if you are an Ásatrúar, Germanic Heathen or an Anglo Saxon Heathen we are all learning from and growing with the same gods and goddesses. We are all folk no matter what title we follow or what names we use for our ancestrial gods.

And I would recomend the Irminen-Gesellschaft to you Der Einzelgänger if you were looking for an org dirrected more towards Germanic Heathenry and your germanic roots. I am not a member but two good posters on this forum (Lonnie and James Hjuka Coulter) are both members of said Org and Mr Coulter is the "main man" I guess you could say, im sure you could PM one of them about the org if you wanted.

[Der Einzelgänger]

Thanks man

I've always felt a connection to my Germanic roots, even before I found Odinism. And when I read the info on Germanic heathenry it kinda clicked.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to go down this path now.

And come to think of it, I prefer to address the god's in their germanic names... I know it really doesn't matter but, it's weird, I felt more connected when I said Donar or Wodan as opposed to Thor or Odin...

Plus I can speak a good amount of German and when I honor the gods I usually do it in German.

Again thanks, I'm gonna go do some thinking now.

[Canuck]

And I would recomend the Irminen-Gesellschaft to you Der Einzelgänger if you were looking for an org dirrected more towards Germanic Heathenry and your germanic roots. I am not a member but two good posters on this forum (Lonnie and James Hjuka Coulter) are both members of said Org and Mr Coulter is the "main man" I guess you could say, im sure you could PM one of them about the org if you wanted.

Off topic, but that's one thing I love about heathenism, it's so non divisive with it's different cultural factions. Would you ever hear an Anglican say to someone "I recomend Roman Catholicism, it suits you."? :p

[Sigurd]

Off topic, but that's one thing I love about heathenism, it's so non divisive with it's different cultural factions. Would you ever hear an Anglican say to someone "I recomend Roman Catholicism, it suits you."? :p

LOL, no, never... :p

[Der Einzelgänger]

I agree. I think it promotes a better heathen community. This way we don't have all the different types of heathens saying their way is the best and fighting over what they think is the right way of doing things.

[Lonnie]

Der Einzelgänger, I would suggest picking up a copy of Hjuka's book "Germanic Heathenry" if Irminism appeals to you...
Also you could join the Irminenschaft list on yahell and/or the forums on Gamall-Steinn Hall (see my sig for a link)...

[Der Einzelgänger]

Oh man, so many books being recommended to me! :p Once I get some more money set aside I plan to buy up as many heathen texts as I can.

Been reading up on Irminism lately and I think it's that way for me to go. Seems more natural for me.

Vielen Dank!

[Scramaseax]

Britons and Saxons have Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, which I think has a different name. Feel free to correct me.

"Britons" are Celtic inhabitants of Great Britian prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasion, the only people who have any ancestral claim to Anglo-Saxon religion are those of Anglo-Saxon descent. Welsh, Scottish and Cornish are largely Celtic. English is British, but British isn't necessarily English. Anglo-Saxon religion is usually known as Þéodisc Geléafa, Theod/Theodish Belief, or Geleafawaer Fyrn Sida.

[Scramaseax]

I prefer to address the god's in their germanic names... I know it really doesn't matter but, it's weird, I felt more connected when I said Donar or Wodan as opposed to Thor or Odin...

I believe Wodan is Dutch and his German name is Wotan. All the names are Germanic remember.

[Sigurd]

Yes, there are many versions of Odin as far as I am aware of:

Wodan - Dutch
Wotan - German
Woden - Old English
Odin - General term & new english
Oden - Norwegian/Swedish

and so on...

[valaskjalf]

I should have asked this a loooooooooooong time ago.

I was wondering, What are your guys views on the difference between, Odinism, Wotanism, and Asatru, Asatru is both connected to them both, But whats the difference if they're both highly connected and basically have the same gods, The elder Futhark, Or am I just being a bit cautious?

[blackantlers]

I should have asked this a loooooooooooong time ago.

I was wondering, What are your guys views on the difference between, Odinism, Wotanism, and Asatru, Asatru is both connected to them both, But whats the difference if they're both highly connected and basically have the same gods, The elder Futhark, Or am I just being a bit cautious?

I might be mistaken, but I think Wotanism is connected with David Lane and Ron McVann- they both mix political stances in with their own brand of Odinism.
When I first got into Northern Heathenry many years ago, I used the term "Asatru" because i thought it sounded "Northern" :rolleyes:
Today I use the term Odinist because that's what I am-a man of Odin.

[Asbrandsson OR]

I should have asked this a loooooooooooong time ago.

I was wondering, What are your guys views on the difference between, Odinism, Wotanism, and Asatru, Asatru is both connected to them both, But whats the difference if they're both highly connected and basically have the same gods, The elder Futhark, Or am I just being a bit cautious?

Hello,

I would say that there are many terms that describe "The native faith of Northern Europeans as practiced in modern times." However, each one has a slightly different connotation to it.

Asatru - Folkish with a slightly anachronistic tint.

Odinism - Folkish in the modern world.

Wotanism - I have only really known one guy that used that term in any real sense to descibe himself and his faith and I think that he was heavily influenced by David Lane.

Asbrandsson OR

[attak53]

I may be wrong but I've always used Asatru and Odinism interchangably (if that's a word). Personally i don't see enough differences between the two to worry, it kind of depends on who I'm talking to at the time as if you say Asatru to a nonbeliever they tend to look at you without a clue whereas if you say Odinism they at least have a little idea of what you are talking about.

[Schwarzesonne]

I tend to use Odinism as a general term basically meaning “revived Heathenry focussed on its function/relevance in the modern world” (zB Irminenschaft, Hedenskap)This differentiates these traditions from what I would call “reconstructionism” (Thiodisc Gelôbo, Heiðni).

Sometimes I’ll use “Asatru” as a synonym for Odinism, whilst other times I’ll use it to describe a form of Odinism specifically based on an Icelandic model depending on the context of the conversation.

Wotanism is a racialist variant of Odinism based on the works of David Lane.

[Guntram]

Living in Germany, I prefer "Germanisches Heidentum" (germanic heathendom).

Some years ago I rejected the terms "odinism" and "asatru", because I saw them as too scandinavian-based for a central-german like me and, more important, I wanted to worship Wodan, not Odin.

Many discussions changed my mind and I accepted asatru as "working title" for my faith, a little later - restricted - odinism, too. Today this forum is drawing me more and more to the term odinism.

Talking to lots of heathens, reading their and your posts, I'm not able to lay my hand on the differences between asatru and odinism. Sometimes there seem to be more differences between different views on asatru than between asatru and odinism.

[Skallagrim]

Surely wouldnt Wotanism be the Germanic equivalent of Odinism. Yes I am aquaitned with David Lane but if we were to see it nowadays, would I be correct?

Propably not lol, but anyway Was Hael...

[Adalwolf]

Wow... I've already learned so much and I've been here only a couple days.

Over the days though, I've found myself saying something like "Asatru seems to fit me, I'll be Asatru." Then the next day I'll say, "Odinism looks good, let's try that!" And now I'm saying the same thing about Irminism. It looks much more familiar to me, and to be honest I am more comfortable saying Wotan and Donar than I am Odin and Thor, I guess because the latter are recognized more for their mythological roles by ordinary people than the former, so it almost feels like I'm talking to myth (even though I know I'm not.)

Ever since joining Asatru, though, I've carried with me a Folkish view of it. Is there a "Folkish Irminism"?

[Asbrandsson OR]

Hello,

David Lane used the word Wotan as an acronym for Will Of The Aryan Nation. Wotanism in the sense of the teaching of David Lane is very misguided and does more hard then good.

Asbrandsson OR

[valaskjalf]

Yeah its just another 're-enactment' I guess, But I must admit Temple of Wotan is a good book.

[Katia]

I use the terms Odinism and Ásatrú interchangeably as well..

[BerserkDog]

I got my copy of "Germanic Heathenry" by James Hjuka Coulter last week and, from what I've read thus far (currently at chapter VI), Irminism is definitely folkish.
I highly recommend this book! The only hindrance I find is not really a hindrance. The differing nomenclature between Asatru and Irminism takes a while to reconcile if you're already accustomed to the English or Norse nomenclature. Some of the translations are self-evident and obvious. Wyrd = Wurt etc.

[Schwarzesonne]

Surely wouldnt Wotanism be the Germanic equivalent of Odinism. Yes I am aquaitned with David Lane but if we were to see it nowadays, would I be correct?

Propably not lol, but anyway Was Hael...

Guido von List used Wuotanismus (“Odinism”) to describe his version of the exoteric faith (with Armanenschaft as the esoteric side of the same faith), sos I think he’d agree with you thought on this.

Those of us today who practice a German-based Heathenry most often use Irminenschaft, although there are other terms occasionally used—the difference being that Irminenschaft has its own specific orthodoxy, whereas people could very well practice a German-based Heathenry in a fashion different from the way we do.

Lane, on the other hand, ignored academically accepted etymology re the name “Wotan” and used it as an amalgam for:

Will
Of
The
Aryan
Nation

[Schwarzesonne]

Most Irminen consider themselves fólkish, whilst others prefer to describe themselves as völkisch. Some will not bother to differentiate and use the two terms interchangeably.

[Hengest]

Temple of Wotan is a good book.


http://www.odinist.com/othala/showthread.php?t=117

[valaskjalf]

I'm talking about the book by Katja Lane.
Wotansvolk and what not.

[beowulf]

I am Asa-tru, Woden is my 'patron', so I suppose both 'Odinist' and 'asatru' apply to me. I call myself Heathen, short and simple. The only reference to 'Wotanism' I'm familiar with is in connection to David Lane.

[XxPinoxX]

Ok, confusing, confusing, CONFUSING!!!! :confused: :help: :scratch: :confused:

So, what, I should be an Anglo-saxon heathen???

[Teufelhunden]

Be what ever you want to be, they were just pointing out that MCvan is a moron plagerist. If you want to be Odinist be one, Irminist be one, but do not bastardize it into universalism. Take it for what it is and not what others want it to be, follow your own path.

[æinvargR]

If you're English, yeah. It'd be strange for a Norse to follow German ways, etc.

[Hengest]

Odinism is an amalgamation of the beliefs of our folk family, whether Saxon, Norse, Icelandic, Germanic etc.

Within Odinism some choose to particularly follow a path based on the traditions of their ancestors, others see these traditions as simply regional variations of the same faith.

Others follow their ancestors traditions exclusively and do not use the term Odinism

[XxPinoxX]

Hmm... well I shall add this headache of ancestry onto the top of my list :p

I think it's best for me to just take my time about it, and not let myself get forced into anything that doesn't 'gel' properly with who I am and where my bloodline lies.

[Liffrea]

It is wise to wait XxPinoxX until you feel that a certain path is right for you.

As White Horse has written Odinism encompasses many different paths. To me it is an umbrella term for the closely related belief systems of the Northern European peoples. For me personally I try to follow, as close as I can, the belief systems of my English ancestors, whilst I get a lot out of the Eddas and Sagas, I don’t feel the same strength of connection as I do with my English ancestors, quite naturally.

I think there is a lot to recommend for Anglo-Saxon Heathenry. Its greatest weakness is that not a great deal survives, but that is also paradoxically a strength. From what survives in the Norse accounts, related but not quite the same since Norse belief had far longer to grow and evolve than English belief, and the snippets of information from Old English sources an attempt can be made to re-awaken a tradition rooted in the past but also focused on the present and future, in the philosophy of Odinism.

An awareness of one’s own personal ancestry is also beneficial. For example my ancestry is largely East Midlands Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire. This can allow a greater connection to place and especially spiritual places like Arbor Low or Thor’s Cave. For all I know some of my forebears once came to these places to honour the Gods as I do today, and as I hope any future children I have will do as well. It provides a connection through Wyrd.

[hisaryanprincess]

Hi all I'm fairly new to odinism and i'm just starting to learn about the heritage, and how it all started, the gods and goddess etc. I haven't even gotten to teh different types or which i should follow any suggestions on what i should lean toward one way or the other? I'm german/Irish decent. thanks and have a great white day!:)

[Waldwinthir]

I would say if you are looking in to Folkish Odinism you are on a fine path sister. Look for others near you to discuss and maybe drink with. :)
Good luck on your search.

[hisaryanprincess]

Thanks, however, no one close to me believes the way I do other than my husband, and he doesn't follow a religion,just his beliefs.... and I don't drink lol so that's out.but thanks much for the help. atleast i know i'm on the right path. racial greetings'

[metalman]

Thanks, however, no one close to me believes the way I do other than my husband, and he doesn't follow a religion,just his beliefs.... and I don't drink lol so that's out.but thanks much for the help. atleast i know i'm on the right path. racial greetings'

First of all, I recommend you follow your husband's example on this one: while some here may disagree with me, I don't view Odinism/Asatru as a religion. Religion, to me, is dogmatic views that dictate to you your beliefs and rules. Odinism is more philosophy, worldviews, and faith that you come to when you realize that you HOLD these views, not where you come to to learn these views. For example, you could become a Christian tomorrow, not knowing a thing about the faith, and they will "educate" you. As an Odinist, you should do your own research, think about what you believe in, and see if you are or aren't an Odinist. Odinism/Asatru is far more than religion, it is the embodiment of our people's ancient culture and values in a modern world. These values were stripped from us with the arrival of Christianity.

The ancients never had a religion, they never had a term for "Odinism" or "asatru" as we do today. It was unnecessary for them. Their spiritual beliefs, morals, and value systems were dominant throughout the culture. While it is good today to be able to call it a name, we must not make the mistake of treating it like mainstream "religion".

I do think you are on the right path. It is my opinion that National Socialism and Odinism/Asatruism are the 2 best philosophies for people of Germanic/Nordic/Celtic/general European descent to follow.

[ullrs_echo]

I agree with metalman. It is not dogmatic by far and you shouldn't have to follow a guideline... it's already in our nature. Do the trees have a guide line on how to grow? The first step is to trust yourself and what nature provides us. As for facts ehhh... they can get mixed up and misinterpreted. I mean it's nice to know all the runes, nine noble virtues, Havamal's writings, ect.. But none of that matters if you don't feel it.

[Scott]

The simple answer is this

Do what feels right but use the myths as your guidelines.

Blot is easy and so is Sumbel

The greatest thing you can do is become your own teacher on your new path :D
There is a lot of homework but then again thats because a great people our ancestors lived :cool:

Its all about Faith Folk and Family, and we accept you with open arms here read and expand! If only for knowing more about who you are, Odinism teaches you a lot about yourself oddly enough.

[Angantyr]

I disagree.

We need to come to see our faith as a body of people with shared beliefs and not a mish mash of people believing whatever they feel like. We need to be organized and to join together for our common good.

Furthermore, there is dogma in our faith. You cannot be an Odinist if you do not believe in our Gods. If you believe in Jesus or Buddha, you are not an Odinist...end of discussion.

[hisaryanprincess]

well I see everyone's point here. And I feel like I should keep going with my direction and doing my own research. This is how I believe. I tried the christianity and its not for me. I don't believe "god" is real. I don't believe he made the earth nor do I believe he made me as a person. I understand that many of us should ban together for our common fight, but everyone has a choice to believe as they choose and I'm not one to argue that one bit. But to all thank you for you input, I really enjoyed seeing how other feel. Have a great one! 14/88

[metalman]

I disagree.

We need to come to see our faith as a body of people with shared beliefs and not a mish mash of people believing whatever they feel like. We need to be organized and to join together for our common good.

Furthermore, there is dogma in our faith. You cannot be an Odinist if you do not believe in our Gods. If you believe in Jesus or Buddha, you are not an Odinist...end of discussion.

Well obviously you cannot be Odinist if you subscribe to other faiths. However, some Odinists believe that the gods are archetypes, not actual beings. I wouldn't consider them any less Odinist, because Odinism is far more than just a belief of divinity... it is an entire world view based on certain principals. We get our knowledge from the world around us, in nature's divine law. Unlike, say, Christianity, we are open to different viewpoints. I don't think we are a "mish mash" of people at all... we all share the same viewpoint and foundations, but from that point we are individuals. By sharing our ideas, opinions, etc., we only grow more intelligent. Our individual ideas can be used to expand on our people's total ideology.

Who would I call an Odinist? A man who follows Odinism, finds knowledge in natural law, but doesn't believe the gods are actual beings, or someone who "worships" Odin, but thinks that racialism is wrong? Definitely the first one, the "Politically Correct" Odinists are worshipping "Jesus" under a different name as far as I am concerned.

[Angantyr]

Well obviously you cannot be Odinist if you subscribe to other faiths. However, some Odinists believe that the gods are archetypes, not actual beings. I wouldn't consider them any less Odinist, because Odinism is far more than just a belief of divinity... it is an entire world view based on certain principals. We get our knowledge from the world around us, in nature's divine law. Unlike, say, Christianity, we are open to different viewpoints. I don't think we are a "mish mash" of people at all... we all share the same viewpoint and foundations, but from that point we are individuals. By sharing our ideas, opinions, etc., we only grow more intelligent. Our individual ideas can be used to expand on our people's total ideology.

Who would I call an Odinist? A man who follows Odinism, finds knowledge in natural law, but doesn't believe the gods are actual beings, or someone who "worships" Odin, but thinks that racialism is wrong? Definitely the first one, the "Politically Correct" Odinists are worshipping "Jesus" under a different name as far as I am concerned.

Clearly, you have your criteria as well as to who is Odinist. This is tantamount to dogmatic rules. Simply, you do not view your own opinion as dogma but as freedom. The next man over will call someone who thinks that racialism is right a non-Odinist and will equally not view his own opinion as dogma but as freedom. The same applies to the opinion as to whether the Gods are archetypes or actual beings. There are even Odinist groups and organizations which admit non-Odinist deities.

It cannot be said that we are not a mish mash as we all share that same vewpoints and opinions, because obviously we absolutely do not.

[metalman]

Clearly, you have your criteria as well as to who is Odinist. This is tantamount to dogmatic rules. Simply, you do not view your own opinion as dogma but as freedom. The next man over will call someone who thinks that racialism is right a non-Odinist and will equally not view his own opinion as dogma but as freedom. The same applies to the opinion as to whether the Gods are archetypes or actual beings. There are even Odinist groups and organizations which admit non-Odinist deities.

It cannot be said that we are not a mish mash as we all share that same vewpoints and opinions, because obviously we absolutely do not.

I think you are confusing "dogma" with "ideas". For example, would you say that the republican party is "dogmatic"? I certainly wouldn't, but it seems that you might. By your definition of dogma, any group in the world would be dogmatic, and that is clearly not the case. But, from that last example, would you say that a gay rights, pro-gun control, pro-immigration person would fit into the Republican party? Probably not, he does not share their ideas and therefore isn't one of them. This is the same with Odinism. If you do not share our most basic ideas, you are not an Odinist. If you do, then you are an Odinist, regardless of what your opinions are on more specific things.

[Angantyr]

I think you are confusing "dogma" with "ideas". For example, would you say that the republican party is "dogmatic"? I certainly wouldn't, but it seems that you might. By your definition of dogma, any group in the world would be dogmatic, and that is clearly not the case. But, from that last example, would you say that a gay rights, pro-gun control, pro-immigration person would fit into the Republican party? Probably not, he does not share their ideas and therefore isn't one of them. This is the same with Odinism. If you do not share our most basic ideas, you are not an Odinist. If you do, then you are an Odinist, regardless of what your opinions are on more specific things.

Every group in the world does have its dogma...a set of ideas or opinions or "facts" that independently cannot be proven right or wrong, but which is accepted as absolute truth by the group. (The Republican party does have its dogma that the Republican party is better for America than the Democratic party and they must remain in power, but its actual policies, which are irrelevant to the dogma, are simply opportunistic. If the Republicans thought that a gay rights, pro-gun control, pro-immigration platform would keep them in power, that is exactly the platform they would have in order to satisfy the dogma of remaining in power.)

You have stated: "If you do not share our most basic ideas, you are not an Odinist. If you do, then you are an Odinist, regardless of what your opinions are on more specific things."

That only begs the question as to what are our most basic ideas. You will present some ideas as basic, whereas the next man will present other ideas as basic, ideas which may be diametrically opposed to yours.

The fact is that we need a more unified dogma so that we do not continue to be a mere mish mash of people believing whatever they feel like. We must be more unified and we must start to help each other.

[metalman]

Every group in the world does have its dogma...a set of ideas or opinions or "facts" that independently cannot be proven right or wrong, but which is accepted as absolute truth by the group. (The Republican party does have its dogma that the Republican party is better for America than the Democratic party and they must remain in power, but its actual policies, which are irrelevant to the dogma, are simply opportunistic. If the Republicans thought that a gay rights, pro-gun control, pro-immigration platform would keep them in power, that is exactly the platform they would have in order to satisfy the dogma of remaining in power.)

You have stated: "If you do not share our most basic ideas, you are not an Odinist. If you do, then you are an Odinist, regardless of what your opinions are on more specific things."

That only begs the question as to what are our most basic ideas. You will present some ideas as basic, whereas the next man will present other ideas as basic, ideas which may be diametrically opposed to yours.

The fact is that we need a more unified dogma so that we do not continue to be a mere mish mash of people believing whatever they feel like. We must be more unified and we must start to help each other.

Well, I notice you are from Canada, this could be because of regional differences but I have never heard someone suggest that every group has its own "dogma". Ideas yes, but dogma has quite a negative connotation. Dogmaticism would be like what Christianity has, which we should steer clear from. Odinism should be a living, breathing faith, not simply living our lives based on what a single book reads. I do agree though that we need to make the basics of Odinism more concrete so that someone can either say "I am an Odinist" or "I am not".

[Angantyr]

Well, I notice you are from Canada, this could be because of regional differences but I have never heard someone suggest that every group has its own "dogma". Ideas yes, but dogma has quite a negative connotation. Dogmaticism would be like what Christianity has, which we should steer clear from. Odinism should be a living, breathing faith, not simply living our lives based on what a single book reads. I do agree though that we need to make the basics of Odinism more concrete so that someone can either say "I am an Odinist" or "I am not".

Dogma means "that which one thinks or seems good". In fact, for most of its existance, the word had no negative connotations. It is only in our politically correct modern world which rejects truth and authority that the word has gained any negative connotations...which makes the word dogma all the sweeter for me. Allow me to draw your attention to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dogma. The definitions conform to my concept and definition of the term, encompassing political an personal dogmas.

Dogmatism should be embraced by our faith. It is the lack of dogmatism that allows our faith to be a loose collecion of loners and eccentrics with no set beliefs and allows us to be confounded with Wiccans on the one hand and incongruently Nazis on the other. The moment that you make any requirement of a faith concrete or a "sine qua non", it becomes, by definition, a dogma. So, folkishness would be dogma and not simply an idea. The insistance that Thor is the God of Thunder be dogma and not simply an idea. The rejection of homosexuality would be dogma and not simply an idea.

Christianity is also a living, breathing faith. It has changed vastly in order to adapt to the times. But, it also has dogma, which keeps the church together and which does not change, such as the concept of the trinity and the concept of the redemption on the cross. It also has a set of behavioural guidelines, such as murder and homosexuality are bad. Lifestyle choices, such as drinking alcohol (not to exces) or having a pet dog or cat are not integral to the faith. Slavery was also a cultural choice that at one time was accepted by Christians and is no longer.

I think part of the problem is that many of us still have a Christian mindset. And in our determination to reject Christianity and everything associated with it, we are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and mistakenly rejecting Heathen concepts as well because of their similarity to Christian concepts.

We should not define ourselves by what Christianity or Judaism is not. Instead of spending our time rejecting Christianity, we should spend our time building Heathenry.

[metalman]

Dogma means "that which one thinks or seems good". In fact, for most of its existance, the word had no negative connotations. It is only in our politically correct modern world which rejects truth and authority that the word has gained any negative connotations...which makes the word dogma all the sweeter for me. Allow me to draw your attention to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dogma. The definitions conform to my concept and definition of the term, encompassing political an personal dogmas.

Dogmatism should be embraced by our faith. It is the lack of dogmatism that allows our faith to be a loose collecion of loners and eccentrics with no set beliefs and allows us to be confounded with Wiccans on the one hand and incongruently Nazis on the other. The moment that you make any requirement of a faith concrete or a "sine qua non", it becomes, by definition, a dogma. So, folkishness would be dogma and not simply an idea. The insistance that Thor is the God of Thunder be dogma and not simply an idea. The rejection of homosexuality would be dogma and not simply an idea.

Christianity is also a living, breathing faith. It has changed vastly in order to adapt to the times. But, it also has dogma, which keeps the church together and which does not change, such as the concept of the trinity and the concept of the redemption on the cross. It also has a set of behavioural guidelines, such as murder and homosexuality are bad. Lifestyle choices, such as drinking alcohol (not to exces) or having a pet dog or cat are not integral to the faith. Slavery was also a cultural choice that at one time was accepted by Christians and is no longer.

I think part of the problem is that many of us still have a Christian mindset. And in our determination to reject Christianity and everything associated with it, we are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and mistakenly rejecting Heathen concepts as well because of their similarity to Christian concepts.

We should not define ourselves by what Christianity or Judaism is not. Instead of spending our time rejecting Christianity, we should spend our time building Heathenry.

Under your definition of dogma, I would be okay with it. Dogma to me represents something that cannot be challenged or built upon, it is an absolute. For example, modern science has shown that evolution is almost definitely a reality, but Christians wont touch it because it conflicts with their "dogma". When Christianity changes, typically, it changes by branching out into different faiths, until dozens of groups are killing eachother all in the name of Christ.

I understand how you want to build Heathenry, I do too, but for a lot of us, we were raised Christian and still have Christian mindsets. I like to think that I have broken free from much of that, I have broken free from it because I realized that I don't like it. Being Christian and accepting Science is very, very difficult. Odinism should never be about rejection of the natural world, as the natural world is the world the Allfather gave us and nature's laws are the Divine Laws of the universe.

[tyciol]

I think the use of runes is pretty cool, they're interesting symbols, and show up in a lot of RPGs, kind of saturated with apprecation in our culture.

[quite_the_saxon]

In comment to the latter post, video games are nice, and yeah, runes are cool, but the meanings of each individual rune is uniqe and worth looking ito. Might I suggest looking into this link:
http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/meanings.html

you might find it interesting to look into the actual meanings of runes, and why they are so important in adding magic to your weapons or powering up your characters in all the classic RPG games... and to our ancestors

[Angantyr]

Under your definition of dogma, I would be okay with it. Dogma to me represents something that cannot be challenged or built upon, it is an absolute. For example, modern science has shown that evolution is almost definitely a reality, but Christians wont touch it because it conflicts with their "dogma". When Christianity changes, typically, it changes by branching out into different faiths, until dozens of groups are killing eachother all in the name of Christ.

I understand how you want to build Heathenry, I do too, but for a lot of us, we were raised Christian and still have Christian mindsets. I like to think that I have broken free from much of that, I have broken free from it because I realized that I don't like it. Being Christian and accepting Science is very, very difficult. Odinism should never be about rejection of the natural world, as the natural world is the world the Allfather gave us and nature's laws are the Divine Laws of the universe.

Science does not have dogma. Science has theory based on observations. Theories can explain a set of facts without necessarily being truth. Newtonian understanding of gravity neatly explains the facts, but because of Einstein, we have a new theory that has superceded Newton. Evolution is a theory. It explains the facts better than other theories, but it still has its holes and it is not fact.

The issue is with Christianity and not with dogma. Christianity sees everything in a very black and white - absolutely true versus absolutely false universe. We are not Christians and so we can have dogma and theory co-existing. I can accept the dogma that Rig/Heimdall/Odin has somehow fathered those of us with blue eyes and at the same time reconcile it with the theory of evolution that humans as a whole originated in Africa. One expresses a supernatural fact and the other a natural theory. The two can exist separately and yet comingle.

I have been a Heathen for 27 years and so I had a lot of time to throw off the Christian mindset, but it is not easy, and I still possess some Christians concepts. I say this with all due respect, but you still possess a Christian concept of dogma. Christianity has so surrounded us that its concepts are as natural to most North Americans as speaking English. You do not have to think about what tense of a verb to use when saying an English sentence. Imagine that you want to completely reconfigure your mind to that of a Norse speaker. It is a lot of work and the choice of tense will seem artificial and unnatural most of the time.

[metalman]

Science does not have dogma. Science has theory based on observations. Theories can explain a set of facts without necessarily being truth. Newtonian understanding of gravity neatly explains the facts, but because of Einstein, we have a new theory that has superceded Newton. Evolution is a theory. It explains the facts better than other theories, but it still has its holes and it is not fact.

The issue is with Christianity and not with dogma. Christianity sees everything in a very black and white - absolutely true versus absolutely false universe. We are not Christians and so we can have dogma and theory co-existing. I can accept the dogma that Rig/Heimdall/Odin has somehow fathered those of us with blue eyes and at the same time reconcile it with the theory of evolution that humans as a whole originated in Africa. One expresses a supernatural fact and the other a natural theory. The two can exist separately and yet comingle.

I have been a Heathen for 27 years and so I had a lot of time to throw off the Christian mindset, but it is not easy, and I still possess some Christians concepts. I say this with all due respect, but you still possess a Christian concept of dogma. Christianity has so surrounded us that its concepts are as natural to most North Americans as speaking English. You do not have to think about what tense of a verb to use when saying an English sentence. Imagine that you want to completely reconfigure your mind to that of a Norse speaker. It is a lot of work and the choice of tense will seem artificial and unnatural most of the time.

I think I understand what you are trying to say. No offense taken at the Christian concept of dogma thing, I probably do still have a Christian concept of it. I only broke free of Christianity about a year ago and haven't been ALIVE for 27 years, lol.

[quite_the_saxon]

Yeah, thanks to those damned Roman Catholic's "Worship our christian god or die" bullshit during the dark ages, christanity has been hewn into the minds of all our would be loyal Odinist Ancestors, and so traditionally and sadly most peoples living in the states that are of germanic decent have problems breaking away from a very strong christianic upbringing....

[Angantyr]

I think that very few first generation Heathens are going to have a heathen mindset.

I liken it to language learning. First generation non-English mother tongue speakers, no matter how musht they want to learn English and how much they practice, will always speak English with an accent. It is only the second generation that can hope to speak English from birth and natively.